NUHS: an unlawful but accredited naturopathic program?

Crime_Scene
It may be very difficult to practice naturopathy in Illinois without committing a crime.

There are seven naturopathic programs that are accredited by the Council on Naturopathic Medical Education. Graduates of these programs are eligible to become licensed naturopaths in 20 U.S. states or territories and five Canadian provinces. Six of the accredited naturopathic programs are in U.S. states or Canadian provinces that license naturopaths as medical practitioners. The seventh is in an unlicensed state. This anomaly raises serious legal and ethical issues.

How can naturopathic students in an unlicensed state be lawfully trained if their instructors are not licensed naturopaths in that state? How could the Council on Naturopathic Medical Education have signed off on this?


The legal quagmire for naturopathic students at National University of Health Sciences

The National University of Health Sciences (NUHS) is located in Lombard, Illinois. It houses the newest naturopathic program accredited by the Council on Naturopathic Medical Education, which is also the only naturopathic program to be paired to an institution that is largely known for its chiropractic program. (University of Bridgeport also has an ND and DC program, among other academic concentrations.)

NUHS has three naturopathic and four chiropractic faculty members, and in 2015, it graduated 14 NDs. By no means is this a large program, but NUHS sure wants prospective students to think it is a big player in fields of health sciences:

National University of Health Sciences
If you are going to claim to have “academic superiority” and “excellence,” you should know that the plural of curriculum is curricula. Screen shot.

Something just doesn’t sit right about a chiropractic/naturopathic institution claiming to offer superb academic training. Let’s take a look at what NUHS specifically says about its naturopathic program:

NUHS naturopathic description
Screen shot.

Like all naturopathic programs, NUHS uses the “same basic sciences as an MD” trope. Whether NUHS employs the academic expertise to teach such courses at the level expected of highly qualified medical students is irrelevant to arguments that a naturopathic program trains competent physicians. The bread and butter of medical education is cultivated in clinical training and then is mastered in residency programs. Naturopathic graduates are ineligible for medical residency programs, and while there are limited naturopathic residency positions available, these function as encores of the pseudoscientific experiences found in naturopathic schools.

The problem with clinical instruction at NUHS is that naturopathic students and faculty members are not legally permitted to do anything that resembles the practice of medicine. Illinois state law (225 ILCS 60/49, from Ch. 111, par. 4400-49) adopts a very broad definition of what a medical practice entails and stipulates that doing so without a valid license is a class 4 felony:

(i) holds himself or herself out to the public as being engaged in the diagnosis or treatment of physical or mental ailments or conditions including, but not limited to, deformities, diseases, disorders, or injuries of human beings;

(ii) suggests, recommends or prescribes any form of treatment for the palliation, relief or cure of any physical or mental ailment or condition of any person with the intention of receiving, either directly or indirectly, any fee, gift, or compensation whatever;

(iii) diagnoses or attempts to diagnose, operates upon, professes to heal, prescribes for, or otherwise treats any ailment or condition, or supposed ailment or condition, of another;

(iv) maintains an office for examination or treatment of persons afflicted, or alleged or supposed to be afflicted, by any ailment or condition;

(v) manipulates or adjusts osseous or articular structures

Sections (ii) and (iii) should frighten any naturopathic practitioner in Illinois. These clauses mean that NUHS naturopathic students and instructors are likely breaking the state law during clinical training, some of which happens at a homeless shelter.

When working at their school’s Salvation Army clinic, ND students see patients “who are often homeless, drug-addicted or who have recently suffered tragedy in their lives” by performing physical exams and developing treatment plans that “recommend nutritional supplements, as well as botanical and homeopathic medicine.”

According to Erin Quinlan, DC, who is head clinician at the homeless shelter clinic, “We see a lot of digestive issues and sleep issues as well as allergies and dermatologic problems. The homeopathic remedies that the ND interns recommend are showing great results in these cases.”

All naturopathic students at NUHS are required to do a three-week “rotation” at the Salvation Army clinic. In other words, these students are required by their institution to put themselves in a situation where they are likely breaking the law. Using quackery on vulnerable patients who generally have a high rate of complicated and chronic health problems is ethically reprehensible.

The on-campus clinic operations at NUHS are further baffling. Prospective patients are told they will have access to “proven natural and traditional healing methods under the care of a licensed primary care physician (DC or MD).” I called the NUHS clinic asking if I could make an appointment with a medical doctor. The receptionist promptly informed me that “the clinic does not employ MDs.”

NUHS employs one medical doctor with an active Illinois license as a clinical lecturer. Dr. Timothy Fior appears to only teach Homeopathy III. Other faculty members at NUHS with MD degrees obtained them from Chinese universities and are not licensed in Illinois.

Here’s the bottom line: according to Illinois law, what naturopathic students and instructors at NUHS are doing in clinical training as described by the school itself seems unlawful if they make any attempts at diagnosis or give out any form of treatment.

Handful of homeopathy
Homeopathy is not medicine, but it might count as an attempt to treat according to Illinois law.

Conclusion

Naturopathic medicine is Kafkaesque. In diving deeper into a study of what naturopaths do and say, a rationally minded person should conclude that the whole institution just makes no sense.

Why do naturopaths insist that “nature works best?” Why do they claim to be science-based while loving up on homeopathy? Why do they claim to be “primary care physicians” but don’t go to medical school or complete medical residencies? Who in their right mind thinks it is a good idea to give the homeless fake medical care in a scenario that is probably illegal?

NUHS is a prime example of the massive legal and ethical problems with the naturopathic profession. I am surprised the Council on Naturopathic Medical Education granted NUHS accreditation, since the school’s instruction and practice of naturopathic medicine appears to be in violation of the agency’s accreditation requirements.

NUHS cannot provide its students clinical instructors who possess the necessary qualifications to train primary care physicians, as its clinical instructors can only teach the unlicensed practice of medicine.

Image credit: 1) Yumi Kimura, under a CC license. 2) Richard Craig, under a CC license.
  • PrimaryCareDoc

    How in the world can they claim to be providing the same basic science education that MDs get, when they have a grand total of 7 faculty members, 4 of whom are chiropractors???

    • http://www.taylorhermes.com Taylor

      The school does employ a variety of faculty members who have PhDs: https://www.nuhs.edu/about-us/faculty/ These folks are listed as lecturers, and some of them also have DC or massage therapy degrees. I don’t know what their PhDs are in exactly. It would be interesting to talk to them, especially the ones who appear more straight-laced.

      Regardless, There is no way one can be trained as a “primary care physician” unless one graduates from an accredited medical school and completes a residency.

      • MI Dawn

        Well…at least I won’t be embarrassed since they don’t offer any *real* science degrees (nursing, pharmacy, etc). OTOH, they claim that they give “doctorates” in chiropractic and naturopathy. While I understand that a DC and ND are “doctors”, they are not Doctors, nor are the degrees doctorates.

  • Travis

    This is baffling, at the very least lol

  • http://www.hempista.com/ Hempista

    It is disgusting beyond words that homeless people are used to experiment on for these fake doctors. I am so glad you posted this Britt. The Salvation Army is a horrific organization and always has been, in particular this, but also their treatment of LGBT people.

  • Michael

    Almost everything in this post is false, and would be subject to a lawsuit if Britt were still in the United States. It is clear she has never visited the school, nor knows anything about it. I will address each point with the reality of things at NUHS. I ENCOURAGE EVERYONE TO RESEARCH ON THEIR OWN INSTEAD OF BELIEVING SOMEONE WHO HAS NO EXPERIENCE WITH THE INSTITUTION. National University of Health Science has been in existence over 100 years (since 1906), offers respected bachelors, masters, and doctoral degrees, and is both regionally and nationally accredited. NUHS Employs over 100 faculty members with doctorates including MDs and PhDs , and is actively involved in publishing research in peer reviewed journals. There are multiple MDs teaching in the ND curriculum, and none of which have degrees from China. (The MDs from China who are employed by the school teach in the Masters of Oriental Medicine program, which is to be expected!) It is not the only chiropractic school that also has a naturopathic program (The University of Bridgeport also does, as well as multiple allopathic medical degree programs). No laws are being broken, for if she didn’t cherry pick info from the Illinois medical practice act, she would see that it lists 3 types of practitioners as physicians: MDs, DOs, and DCs. All Students across the multiple health clinics are over seen by a physician, and thus practicing legally under their license. While it is true not all NDs complete residency, it is not because they don’t want to, it is because they are not of yet included in medicare, (and medicare pays for the MD/DO residency program) so all residencies that are obtained, have to be privately funded, (which is a huge task) The ND program at NUHS is a 5 academic year medical program, with the entire last year of school being spent in public clinics treating hundreds of patients. This is known as a clerkship and this serves the same purpose of a residency. This is something not done in medical or osteopathic school, as they spend their last year doing rotations to figure out what specialty they are going to go into. NDs from the beginning are trained to be primary care doctors from day one, there isn’t a reason for them to complete rotations to see if they’d like to specialize in another field. If they do want to specialize in another field such as women’s health, they then complete a women health residency after completing their primary care clerkship. The clerkship system is done in multiple medical fields such as dentistry, nursing, chiropractic, pediatrics, physical therapy, also of which are not required to complete residencies, but Britt doesn’t seem to be questioning them. Maybe if she were still a US resident, she would remember it is up to the individual states to define how medical licenses are achieved. In many states, NDs are licensed primary care doctors and able to bill insurance as such. In some states, NDs are required to complete residency to practice, in many states, non doctoral nurse practitioners are legally primary care providers, with about 1/3 of the education of an ND. In Illinois where NUHS is located, DCs are on the medical practice act right next to medical doctors, with no requirement of residency, and may serve as primary care physicians. All the points made in both the post, and the comments, are based on opinions of those with no experience with the institution, and clearly not much knowledge with how different professions are regulated legally by the states. Might as well start a Chiropractic-diaries, Dental-diaries, Optometrist-diaries, Nursing-diaries ,and a Podiatry-diaries also to keep under control all the medical professionals who aren’t MDs. All of the same points can be made about these professions, but aren’t, because she knows she is wrong.

    • https://www.facebook.com/Chronic-Lyme-and-Morgellons-Imagination-Station-1393963824258445/ Chronic Lyme Cult Awareness

      Great job of spreading propaganda for snake oil and quackery, Michael

      • Michael

        I shared nothing but facts, while you only made a post based on an un-informed belief. If it we’re propaganda and quackery, it would not be licensed be the state and federal government the way that it is, and continued to be licensed following ongoing reviews year after year. Scope and coverage is expanding because of these facts. You can continue to live in the 60’s if you’d like. This is the same story the osteopaths had 50 years ago. There were people like you who just couldn’t get over their misinformed beliefs, but now are indistinguishable from medical doctors legally. Why not do some real research, instead of believing a blog to fulfill your predetermined notion.

        • https://www.facebook.com/Chronic-Lyme-and-Morgellons-Imagination-Station-1393963824258445/ Chronic Lyme Cult Awareness

          Homeopathy is snake oil and quackery. That school teaches homeopathy. Your promotion of the school by the transitive property means your spreading propaganda for snake oil and quackery. Naturopathy is not legitimized just because some politicians have been duped into supporting it.

        • Thomas Mohr

          Do the litmus test. How many NDs teach at a comparable international university ? How many MDs do so ? In Europe an ND is not even recognized as a graduate degree.

          • Michael

            And in America, many of the European degrees aren’t recognized… In Spain you can become a DO in a year, or even online, yet theres no way in hell they’re going to come here to the US and practice Surgery like a US trained one is…You’re not making a point here…
            At NUHS,

            All Physiology teachers have PhD’s in Physiology

            All Anatomy professors have Doctorates, as well as Masters in Anatomy

            The main Pathology professor is a Medical Doctor who ran university hospital surgical floors for 25 years.

            The main Microbiology professor has 3 masters and 2 doctorates.

            The Pharmacology professor has a PhD from the Loyola, Strict School of Medicine

            The Neuroanatomy professor has a PhD from University of Chicago in Neuroanatomy

            The main Radiology professor has Dental and Osteopathic degrees, as well as having a doctor of Chiropractic and board certified radiologist.

            The Public Health professor has a DC degree, as well as a masters and PhD in Public Health.

            The Dean of research has 2 doctorates including a PhD from the Medical College of Ohio.

            They have NDs teaching in the clinical science department that also work at other well respected institutions such as Cancer Treatment Centers of America, and Northwestern Medical Hospital downtown Chicago.

            These themes can go on and on…Seriously what more do you want?

            • Thomas Mohr

              I am not comparing DO from Spain with DOs from the US. I am comparing NDs with MDs. Further, you forget to mention that most of the doctorates are doctorates in chiropractic which comes close to a doctorate in naturopathy. As for the Cancer Treatment Centers of America. coincidentially I am a scientist in cancer research. I looked at their statistics. They are not a well respected institution.

              • Michael

                Actually almost every line up there I wrote says PhD…Yes there are DCs (which in Illinois are on the medical practice act as physicians) , but thats what integrative healthcare is, different disciplines working together. If the school were entirely PhD’s ,Where would the clinical science teaching come from? If it were entirely MDs, where would the basic science learning come from? Like I said. Go argue about naturopaths in countries where they complete nominal degrees, Not American Naturopathic Physicians, which you have no experience with…

                Also you can’t compare numbers. Obviously there are more MDs teaching at universities than there are NDs. (There are 1 million Medical doctors in the US, compared to 5,000 NDs, of course there is going to be a larger number teaching also… But that doesn’t mean there aren’t NDs teaching at university… many do infact.) I know you don’t understand the situation here, because in your country, you believe MDs are equal to masters, where here, an MD is equivalent to a PhD. Its the highest level attainable in a field.
                Thats why I urge you to stop your comparisons when you don’t understand the playing field here in the US. If you would truly like a comparison, there are plenty of articles written by people who are both ND and MDs about the comparison. Or you can reach out to many of them and I’m sure they’d be happy to answer:
                Alex Vasquez who obtained his DC,ND,DO all from the US, and now lives in Europe doing research would be a great personal resource for you to learn, as are his publications and textbooks. As well as Wendy Weber, ND, PHD a branch chief at the US Government, National Institute of Health, one of the most respected hospitals and research centers in the entire world.

                • Thomas Mohr

                  I looked at the faculty A-B. Of the 15 something people listed there only roughly 20% has a PhD.

                  Quote: ” I know you don’t understand the situation here, because in your country, you believe MDs are equal to masters, where here, an MD is equivalent to a PhD. Its the highest level attainable in a field” Nope, .An MD is a professional doctorate whereas the PhD is the top level academic degree. Therefore many US MDs do PhDs.

                  • Michael

                    While that doesn’ come close to listing all the faculty at the school, even if it did, who cares! So what if 20% have a PhD? We are talking about clinical medicine! Practicing physicians! NOT A PhD program. Who would go to a Medical school where every teacher was a PhD?!?! I’d be scared to death of not learning any real life clinical knowledge! They can teach Basic sciences all day long but there’s no way in hell I want to learn physical exams, medical skills, or primary care from a simple academic! Someone who doesn’t practice!

                    I want the experts in the field. If its a physical medicine class, give me a DC as an instructor. If dermatology, give me a MD, If its clinical nutrition, give me a ND, If its Cell biology class, then give me a PhD… You clearly have no experience or understand academia or the law’s of the US… Why still argue?

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    You still don’t get it. Sure it is only a sample, but 20% not having a PhD means that a high proportion of the faculty possess a degree that is internationally *not even recognized as a masters degree*, especially if this is an ND. If you want experts in the field, why not stick to those experts who work science based and do not voodoo like DC and NDs ?

                  • Mark

                    The only MD that are going to teach at a naturopathic school is because they are having trouble achieving an appointment at a real medical school, or if they are very junior faculty and simply need the work.

                  • Michael

                    Like I’ve said.. all of this is just something you came up with with no data to back up your statement. Have you met an MD who couldn’t get a teaching job so they went to a ND school? No? Then don’t comment about one! Like I posted below. My Pathology MD teacher ran a surgical floor for 25 years. My lab diagnosis teacher still runs a clinic with multiple MDs making over $300,000 in his clinic. The reason they are teaching here couldn’t possibly be because they’ve had giant careers full of experience, and they’ve realized allopathic medicine isn’t perfect… grow up. Ever wonder why so many MDs go back through medical school to get their ND? Wonder why so many MDs are trying to get certified in “functional medicine and nutrition” , what we’ve always done, and founded the programs for…

                  • Mark

                    You live in a very insular world. You said yourself that there are only 5000 practicing ND, so how many of them really could have an MD? You say I have no data to back up my statement? I scrolled through all your faculty and as I said there are only two MD’s on the list from the USA –one of whom primary focus is homeopathy and the other seems retired. Do you not see how pathetic that is? How can you say that MD are endorsing your school when you can only find a handful of people willing to teach there.
                    I may have missed a couple of MD on your faculty list…please point them out…show me the data!!
                    regardless you are definitely not being taught hands on, one student at a time, by a cardiologist for cardiology, gynaecologist for gynaecology, ophthalmologist for ophthalmology etc etc. You do realize this is what goes on in a medical school?–do i really have to provide date to prove this to you?

                  • Mark

                    The only MD that are going to teach at a naturopathic school is because they are having trouble achieving an appointment at a real medical school, or if they are very junior faculty and simply need the work.

                • Mark

                  Well I understand Michael and you are full of it!!

                • Mark

                  Well I understand Michael and you are full of it!!

            • Mark

              Like usual you are wrong michael. MDs from other countries are definitely recognized. Especially academics are often able to come to the USA and even operate without further training. Usually a foreign MD will have to take the fellowship exam or the USMLE. In some cases they have to repeat their residencies.
              It is pretty well unheard of that they would actually have to repeat their MD!
              An MD will welcome any MD from any country in the world as their peer….but they will simply reject and probably laugh at an ND.

            • Mark

              Like usual you are wrong michael. MDs from other countries are definitely recognized. Especially academics are often able to come to the USA and even operate without further training. Usually a foreign MD will have to take the fellowship exam or the USMLE. In some cases they have to repeat their residencies.
              It is pretty well unheard of that they would actually have to repeat their MD!
              An MD will welcome any MD from any country in the world as their peer….but they will simply reject and probably laugh at an ND.

              • Mark

                Also do you realize that a naturopathic degree nor chiropractic degree is not offered at any university in north america. Chiropractic was rejected at florida state university and recently at York university in Canada….but otherwise not even close.
                I never accept a referral from a naturopath, I say that the patient must see an MD first before i will accept the referral.

              • Mark

                Also do you realize that a naturopathic degree nor chiropractic degree is not offered at any university in north america. Chiropractic was rejected at florida state university and recently at York university in Canada….but otherwise not even close.
                I never accept a referral from a naturopath, I say that the patient must see an MD first before i will accept the referral.

            • Mark

              I scrolled through your list of faculty and was only able to identify two MDs on the whole list with MD from the USA. One seems to specialize in homeopathy, so he has already lost all credibillity. The other seems to be a non-practicing retired physician. This is comparison to the university of chicago which has 100s of MD on primary faculty and a clinical teaching staff of 1000s. So where are all these MDs that supposedly teach you?–are they are ashamed to be associated with your school or do they simply not exist?
              Who teaches you cardiology or ophthalmology?–both important skills for a primary physician? And i do not mean teach in a lecture but actually hands on teaching? Do they ever let you actually examine patients and take care of them like a medical student would. I really do believe that you are delusional when it comes to the difference in training and just like to keep repeating to yourself that it is equivalent.

              • Michael

                I said before, the list listed is not up to date at all, nor complete.
                A cardiophysiologist teaches the first class cardiology, and the second taught by a DC who completed a residency in internal medicine. A neurologist teaches ophthalmology. lol do they ever let us examine patients.. do you really think we like go to school in someones backyard or something? Yes we get hands on patients… We’re on a ten acre 110 year old well established university with state of the art Cadaver and biochemistry labs, and the largest medical library in illinois. A clinic that see’s a thousand patients a day, and multiple off campus clinics. Our florida campus is located at St. Petersburg college and uses all of their respective community clinics.. (oh-no, another traditional academic center you have to now hate, we have a huge list going today…) Seriously do some research, visit a school, have some evidence behind your bigotry.

                • Mark

                  A neurologist teaches opthalmoogy….now that is a joke. How can you not see the deficiencies in your training?
                  How can a DC complete a residency in internal medicine (where is that allowed???) and then teach you cardiology?
                  I have lots of evidence….For example, in my university, we have 80 cardiologists on faculty (who are all fellowship trained and have published in multiple journals) who teach are medical students cardiology. In first year, they get didactic lectures and problem based learning. Second year they are on the wards examining patients. Third year they are full time on the wards and have fist contact with non emergent patients. Fourth year they examine even emergent patients, and are first point of contact overnight for urgent care. They will have examined 100’s if not thousands of patients with cardiac disease and will have seen even the rarest of condtions.
                  Let me get this straight?…you have a chiropractor teaching you cardiology? on most likely healthy patients.
                  you feel this is equivalent education. This is like 1/1000 of the education. are you really that delusional?

                • Mark

                  st petersburg college is a college not a university. It does not have a medical school. It is a far cry from a “traditional academic centre” I do not need to hate it as it is not even on my radar.

            • Mark

              Please tell me more.. this is great stuff. You really do not realize how you are burying yourself. Cardiology taught by a DC, ophthalmology taught by a neurologist? Who teaches gynecology, psychiatry…tell me more

              • Michael

                I’m getting out, as my intention was to address the author’s points that we’re almost all complete errors, easily recognizable with little bit of investigation, and I have done that well and again. If the author has never been to the school, or had any experience with the clinic, he has no business “reviewing” it with inaccurate information. I’m not here to try to convert your religious-like belief’s. For some reason it is unacceptable for you, that NDs are trained by NDs (as well as PhDs, MDs, and DCs.) even though this is how other profession’s are handled. PTs are trained by PTs, NPs are trained in school by NPs. DPMs are trained by DPMs, DCs are trained by DCs, PAs are trained by PAs, ODs are trained by ODs and all have scopes to reflect as such…its how things are done. IF NDs were trained by 100% MDs like you’d like.. then they be MDs.. and thats not what they want. There is no intention for them to become surgeons, or specialize in things like cardiology or ophthalmology. They are trained from day one for one job (of which many other professionals are doing this job with less training, still haven’t gotten an answer to why you don’t attack all those above professions like you feel you need to here). And that job is primary care: ensuring the maintenance of health of patients, and being able to recognize the signs of advanced or urgent disease, and referring out when appropriate. IF they do want to go out and specialize, its required that they go out and complete the appropriate residency training to do so, but as it stands. the students at NUHS are incredibly well trained for the job they are meant for, and thats what this post was about.

                • David

                  Please do not leave! you are providing so much useful information of how your training is worse than anyone could imagine!. You have chiropractors teaching cardiology!
                  You are incredibly naïve, if you think it is not important that a primary care physician have skills in ophthalmology and cardiology? How can you even pretend that your education is equivalent when I just told you what a typical curriculum is in medical school is for cardiology. There is no way with your training that you are going to recognize signs of disease. It is incredible to me that you are still hanging on to the thought that your education is equivalent. You are a danger to the public I think your statements can be used to lobby the government to show just how poor you are educated. Cardiology taught by a chiropractor!!!—and you think that is OK!!–I do not think I can ever get over that one.

                • David

                  Please do not leave! you are providing so much useful information of how your training is worse than anyone could imagine!. You have chiropractors teaching cardiology!
                  You are incredibly naïve, if you think it is not important that a primary care physician have skills in ophthalmology and cardiology? How can you even pretend that your education is equivalent when I just told you what a typical curriculum is in medical school is for cardiology. There is no way with your training that you are going to recognize signs of disease. It is incredible to me that you are still hanging on to the thought that your education is equivalent. You are a danger to the public I think your statements can be used to lobby the government to show just how poor you are educated. Cardiology taught by a chiropractor!!!—and you think that is OK!!–I do not think I can ever get over that one.

                • Mark

                  I’m going to forward all your notes from here to the Illinois medical board. So when naturopaths in your state try to get prescribing rights…they can show the legislators that the students feel it is adequate to learn their cardiology from a chiropractor.

                  • Michael

                    Again. You don’t respond to any points. Just keep up your dogma. The Illinois licensing bill for NDs does not include prescription drugs, so you do not have to worry.

                  • Mark

                    What points do you want me to respond to?
                    1) Yes I personally know of an MD who could not get a faculty position at a university and took a temporary teaching position at a naturopathic school. This ended up hurting his prospects further when he then reapplied to a medical school.
                    2) Naturopathic vs medical school training is equal? because your naturopathic society says so? because Dr Huber…who says she has a 90 percent success rate with treating cancers says so? Cmon–I just told you the difference. We are taught by specialists in the field on real patients. Medical school is geared towards producing primary care physicians as well. Seriously your training is way worse than I ever imagined.
                    3) physios taught by physios etc…. That is appropriate as a physio is not trying to diagnose heart conditions nor other primary care. And actually, I have given multiple small group lectures to physios in the past–they seem to have more primary care training than naturopaths?!
                    4) The quality of the students: almost a 100 percent acceptance rate with pathetic gpa is all that is required.
                    I have not even addressed the main point is that you teach completely debunked diagnoses such as adrenal fatigue and use debunked treatments such as homeopathy (which as a pharm d, I am shocked that you could actually believe in…)
                    What other points did you want me to cover.
                    You should not be allowed to pass yourself off as a primary care provider, let alone a doctor, with such poor education.

                  • Mark

                    Even worse…they want to practice as family physicians. I do think your information will be very helpful to legislators. Talk about not knowing what you don’t know??

                  • Mark

                    please before you leave us forever, could you explain how a chiropractor could have a residency in internal medicine?

                  • Mark

                    Michael:

                    As a port of entry professional, it is very important to not only to get the right diagnosis, but more important not to miss it. To refer if a diagnosis or treatment can’t be given.

                    Unless ND’s are willing to refer, all but the most obvious cases to MD’s (treat the worried well) then this is a horror show waiting to happen.

                    Look, the few evidence based chiropractors who treat only back pain, struggle to find alternate diagnosis (to uncomplicated back pain) that most MD’s could easily pick up.

                    So yeah, it’s better than not going to a doctor, but if you think you are going to see a diagnostician and you are not, this can be serious trouble.

                    If there is a place for ND’s. And I don’t think thier is, but hey it’s not my life. If there is a place, it’s purely as an adjunct. A pretty worthless adjunct. But heck, placebo works and maybe you can help people with symptomatic relief.

                  • Mark

                    Michael:

                    As a port of entry professional, it is very important to not only to get the right diagnosis, but more important not to miss it. To refer if a diagnosis or treatment can’t be given.

                    Unless ND’s are willing to refer, all but the most obvious cases to MD’s (treat the worried well) then this is a horror show waiting to happen.

                    Look, the few evidence based chiropractors who treat only back pain, struggle to find alternate diagnosis (to uncomplicated back pain) that most MD’s could easily pick up.

                    So yeah, it’s better than not going to a doctor, but if you think you are going to see a diagnostician and you are not, this can be serious trouble.

                    If there is a place for ND’s. And I don’t think thier is, but hey it’s not my life. If there is a place, it’s purely as an adjunct. A pretty worthless adjunct. But heck, placebo works and maybe you can help people with symptomatic relief.

                • Mark

                  Maybe because none of the above are asking for full scope of practice that is equivalent to a primary care MD who had had 3 years of medical school and a 4 year residency. Nurse practitioners who may have a modified scope train in a hospital setting and often with MDs.

                  • Mark

                    OMG Mark, how can you stand this BS?

                    ND’s as full scope of practice? How many more children must die? How many vaccines not given but homeopathic remedies are?

                    How many people trying to treat cancer (and just about everything else) with vitamin C I.V.’s.

    • Thomas Mohr

      Let’s answer from an international point of view:

      1) NUHS offers respected Masters and Doctors degrees. Neither a DO nor a ND is recognized internationally. The same goes for most of the masters degrees.

      2) NUHS publishes in peer reviewed journals: 108 papers since 2001. For a university this is abysmal

      enough said.

      • Michael

        Thats the worse argument yet… How do I know your Biotechnology degree is recognized by every country in the world? Almost no other medical degrees from other countries are recognized here in the US. So that means all those medical doctors practicing legally in their respected countries throughout Europe, the Middle East, and Asia, aren’t doctors either because another country doesn’t recognize them? You’re not a physician, you’re not in the US, and you clearly don’t understand the state of things in America. Why not go argue about the Australian naturopaths who complete bachelor degrees, you may have an argument there. Instead of hating on the Naturopathic Physicians in America who complete a bachelors and 4 years of medical school, and are legally allowed to diagnose and prescribe after completing their licensing boards. You may very well be right about unregistered naturopaths in your country. But you don’t understand the situation here.

        • Thomas Mohr

          You do not understand the Argument. “Almost no other medical degrees from other countries are recognized here in the US.” This is not true. Friends of mine had a offerings to universities such as Harvard, at postgraduate level. I have never heard that this is true for an ND in Europe. Britt Hermes was rated as BSc.

          Once again, the question is could an ND professor get an equal position internationally ? The answer is NO WAY. Also, could an ND enter a PhD program internationally like MDs frequently do ? Again the answer is NO.

          Aside that, your argument re equal education does not fly. By the time an MD is licensed s/he has at least 3 years experience. An ND has almost none. Additionally ND schools have an abysmal academic record, the teachers as well as the university as a whole.

          • Michael

            And friends of mine have had offering at European universities …So what? Who Cares… These are individualized cases, that are going to differ for every country, and every university… Some NDs may get in to some schools, some won’t. Some MDs will get into some european schools, some won’t, Some european PhDs will get accepted in the US, some won’t…
            You proved my point exactly with the DOs.. that in Europe, they’re not accepted as well as the MDs, but in America, they go through identical training, and have all the same scope and respect (DOs can even sit to take Medical boards instead of osteopathic boards if they want), yet if the DO went to europe, it’d be treated differently than the MD, out of dogma, not out of training (because its identical!) It’s the same situation for NDs…
            Why are you trying to fit everyone into you’re small world. I wouldn’t want to do a PhD in Europe, because in America, it wouldn’t be as respected as a PhD from America. Not everyone wants what you have…

            • Thomas Mohr

              Your Alex vasquez works at some international college for functional medicine – which is a bad example for a researcher. You are claiming NDs have the same education as MDs. MDs have to do a residency of at east 3 years, that amounts to at least 7500 hours. This is training too. NDs do not do that. Additionally 50% of what they study ist pseudoscience. There is NO WAY that this is an equal education. I am sorry but this does not fly.

              • Michael

                He’s published hundreds of peer reviewed articles, and has just begun his own journal… don’t try to tell me he’s a bad example. You’re wrong again, not all MDs have to complete residency in the US, in fact theres a good number who don’t (I believe the number is 20% who don’t, but don’t quote me its been awhile on that one) …
                And how do you know “50% of what they study is pseudoscience?” Have you attend a class there? Looked at the Textbooks used? Have you even met an American Licensed Naturopathic Physician? Exactly… All No’s…

                • Thomas Mohr

                  Starting an own Journal means nothing. Everybody can do that. with respect to the hundreds of peer reviewed articles, his publication list includes a lot of letters to journals, this is highly suspicious. As for the residency, Maybe some MDs don’t do residencies. But these MDs are not let lose on patients. I have looked at some Textbooks used in Naturopathy, especially at the naturopathic bible, that is The Textbook of Naturopathic Medicine by some Bastyr Dean I think. Interesting stuff to read. I also looked at the study guides for the nplex. Treating a woman with suspected diabetes with Qi strengthening is – lets say it unusual.

                  • Michael

                    I didn’t mean that starting his own journal was prestigious, just that you brought up his current job, He’s left teaching in academia and doing research, to run this journal. But he can still comment on his past life.. I encourage you to check out his book on amazon, pull any one of the 1000 pages, and tell me if you find quackery, or biochemistry.

                    -These MDs very well may be let loose on patients, in fact the most precious patients… MDs that decide to work for the armed forces do not need to complete a residency, and may performing surgery sewing on amputated legs.

                    -I’ve never heard of the books you’ve mentioned, or any kind of ND bible, All of the textbooks I used at NUHS are the same books used in Medical Schools. (I’d give you a list, but literally each semester, there are about 20 books used, and I don’t have time to make a list like that. If you had a specific class you wanted me to send you the title of the book for, I could do that.)

                    -I don’t know what goes on at Bastyr and cannot speak for them. I hear its a great school, but I have no experience with it, only NUHS and other medical and pharmacy schools in the Chicagoland area.

                    -You’re pulling from an oriental medicine section. (of which NUHS ND students only get an introduction to oriental medicine class, it is the institutions belief if you want to study oriental medicine, you should get at-least a masters in it., I understand the other schools have multiple oriental med classes, that I can’t speak to. ) Of course it is going to sound foreign if you have no training in oriental medicine. Its just a different language…

                    -study guides for the NPLEX… its a study guide.. anyone could make a study guide and theres no one to say if its valuable or not. The recommended Board review books at NUHS are the USMLE first aid books. ( http://www.amazon.com/First-Aid-Usmle-Step-2016/dp/1259587371/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1464568003&sr=1-1&keywords=usmle+first+aid+2016 )

                  • Michael

                    I know you’ve seen these info graphics. ( http://thrivenatmed.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Slide1.jpg ) but we really do get a firmer basic science education then medical doctors. The basic science you love so much. The majority of the PhDs at my school, also teach at nearby medical schools, (because as you know academia doesn’t pay well and people need multiple jobs) and we hear day in and day out, that we are getting the same education, or better. (it’s the same caliber, we just get more hours, they don’t have time to dig into the details like we do with things like anatomy, and biochemistry.) Also I know you’re stuck on homeopathy and oriental med, but the majority of what we do is nutrition and preventative medicine. The majority of the Medical Doctors in the area receive literally 0 nutrition classes in Medical School. We get no less than 6. This is why we are primary care. Because Primary Care treats things like the preventable disease epidemics we are experiencing. (cardiovascular disease, autoimmune conditions, and diabetes) Of which the research is overwhelmingly supportive, that prevention is not only the best, but most cost effective strategy. Interventional cardiologists talk mediterranean diet all day long, yet have never had a single class in nutrition. This is the person you want to see if you have moderately high blood pressure? We NDs aren’t trying to treat Cancer, or be dermatologists, surgeons, or pulmonologists, ophthlamologists , etc. (unless one goes and completes a residency in a specialty, but all of our clerkships are in traditional primary care.) We are trained as primary care physicians should be: To manage manageable diseases with prevention, diet, and lifestyle intervention, and when we encounter advanced disease, to refer these type’s of patients to specialists. This really isn’t a huge controversy here. MDs are all leaving primary care. They don’t want to do it, they all want to cut, and this leaves a huge gap for primary care trained NDs to step in. Like I said, advanced disease, even if we have the training for it, is typically referred out. The Second two columns in this link are the VooDoo docs you fear… not the first two. http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/files/2014/10/Naturopath-401×450.jpg
                    Again. You want to see a textbook for a class or wonder about training in a certain area, I will be happy to answer. But I can’t possibly sit and transcribe 4900 hours of education to you.

                  • Mark

                    All the figures naturopaths give are always written by naturopaths!. Look at the bottom, compiled by AANMC. If compiled by a medical school it would look very different. I really think in ND school they just get you to repeat the mantra that “i am a real doctor” and “naturopathic school is the same as medical school but better”. They teach you advocacy so you can make sure to tell the government the same thing.
                    Most medical schools are now problem based, so that the hours of class room work is not comparable.
                    A typical rotation in surgery in third year medical school consists of being at the hospital before around 4:30 to pre round on the patients, 5:30 to meet the resident to round on patients; operating room by 7:00; round again between 4:00-5:00. Clinical teaching and case review between 5;00 -6:30 and then up all night if you are on call. Naturopaths do this too?
                    Even in second year: a cardiologist will review say valvular disease, then we will proceed to the hospital where we will examine patients with valvular disease, then you have the option of watching surgery. Whereas a naturopath sits in his classroom and someone tells them about valvular disease. Maybe they will drum up some patient with aortic stenosis (but i doubt it) and everyone will take a listen.
                    You are simply delusional if you think your training is anywhere comparable.

                  • Mark

                    All the figures naturopaths give are always written by naturopaths!. Look at the bottom, compiled by AANMC. If compiled by a medical school it would look very different. I really think in ND school they just get you to repeat the mantra that “i am a real doctor” and “naturopathic school is the same as medical school but better”. They teach you advocacy so you can make sure to tell the government the same thing.
                    Most medical schools are now problem based, so that the hours of class room work is not comparable.
                    A typical rotation in surgery in third year medical school consists of being at the hospital before around 4:30 to pre round on the patients, 5:30 to meet the resident to round on patients; operating room by 7:00; round again between 4:00-5:00. Clinical teaching and case review between 5;00 -6:30 and then up all night if you are on call. Naturopaths do this too?
                    Even in second year: a cardiologist will review say valvular disease, then we will proceed to the hospital where we will examine patients with valvular disease, then you have the option of watching surgery. Whereas a naturopath sits in his classroom and someone tells them about valvular disease. Maybe they will drum up some patient with aortic stenosis (but i doubt it) and everyone will take a listen.
                    You are simply delusional if you think your training is anywhere comparable.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Michael, again. These numbers do not even nearly reflect what is going on. If assemble a bunch of middle school teachers I could also do the basic science courses. A university is based on the fact that teachers also have academic credentials as shown by a solid research and publication record. If you look at the academic record of NUHS as a whole and of the single faculty members it is abysmal.

                  • Michael

                    I know you’ve seen these info graphics. ( http://thrivenatmed.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Slide1.jpg ) but we really do get a firmer basic science education then medical doctors. The basic science you love so much. The majority of the PhDs at my school, also teach at nearby medical schools, (because as you know academia doesn’t pay well and people need multiple jobs) and we hear day in and day out, that we are getting the same education, or better. (it’s the same caliber, we just get more hours, they don’t have time to dig into the details like we do with things like anatomy, and biochemistry.) Also I know you’re stuck on homeopathy and oriental med, but the majority of what we do is nutrition and preventative medicine. The majority of the Medical Doctors in the area receive literally 0 nutrition classes in Medical School. We get no less than 6. This is why we are primary care. Because Primary Care treats things like the preventable disease epidemics we are experiencing. (cardiovascular disease, autoimmune conditions, and diabetes) Of which the research is overwhelmingly supportive, that prevention is not only the best, but most cost effective strategy. Interventional cardiologists talk mediterranean diet all day long, yet have never had a single class in nutrition. This is the person you want to see if you have moderately high blood pressure? We NDs aren’t trying to treat Cancer, or be dermatologists, surgeons, or pulmonologists, ophthlamologists , etc. (unless one goes and completes a residency in a specialty, but all of our clerkships are in traditional primary care.) We are trained as primary care physicians should be: To manage manageable diseases with prevention, diet, and lifestyle intervention, and when we encounter advanced disease, to refer these type’s of patients to specialists. This really isn’t a huge controversy here. MDs are all leaving primary care. They don’t want to do it, they all want to cut, and this leaves a huge gap for primary care trained NDs to step in. Like I said, advanced disease, even if we have the training for it, is typically referred out. The Second two columns in this link are the VooDoo docs you fear… not the first two. http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/files/2014/10/Naturopath-401×450.jpg
                    Again. You want to see a textbook for a class or wonder about training in a certain area, I will be happy to answer. But I can’t possibly sit and transcribe 4900 hours of education to you.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Michael, the next thing that is not true. In order to be a member of the Army Medical Corps in responsible position you are required to have a license to practice medicine. All other MDs serving are in the same position as MDs doing residencies. So that argument too does not fly. Re NPLEX study guide, these are organized like the NPLEX itself, i.e. questions that may come. At least 20% of each question is testing pseudosceince, in some cases 100%. With the symptoms described, i.e. dizzyness, fatigue and excessive thirst the recommended pseudoscientific treatments are a danger for the patient.

                    The book I meant is the rextbook of natural medicine by Pizzoro and Murray. Both are extremely eminent in naturopathic medicine abd the Textbook is full of errors. Example needed ? allopathic medicine only alleviates symptoms. That was true in the 19th century.

                    A fairly recent study showed that f.i. Canadian Naturopaths practice homeopathy to a high extent. I guess the same could be true for the US. Do you know how homeopathic remedies are “developed” and “tested” I know it. It is a disaster.

                • Mark

                  Again Michael. What are you talking about. Of an mad wants to practice medicine, then he completes a residency. Many MD may choose not to do a residency as they are only interested in non clinical medicine. God you are naive

                • The Bofa on the Sofa

                  He’s published hundreds of peer reviewed articles, and has just begun his own journal..

                  Michael – just to let you know, starting your own journal is generally viewed in the science community as the sign of a crank. I routinely get spam emails inviting me to start my own journal. These are open-access journals where people pay to get their article published in it.

                  I have often wondered when I get these emails who are the morons who are actually doing this crap. Now I know – they’re homeopaths. And they are so stupid that they act like it’s a GOOD thing.

              • Michael

                And don’t even say its because of the “functional medicine” wording in the International College for Functional Medicine and Clinical Nutrition … the Mayo Clinic has a functional medicine department… oh no, guess their quacks too! Not only have we ruled out Harvard, John Hopkins, but now Mayo too! You’re not going to have any institutions left you’ll like by the end of this convo…
                It would be the same 20% if you sampled a medical school…PhDs teach basic sciences, Clinical doctors teach clinical sciences… Again. “Recognized internationally” is an extremely vague phrasing. We don’t even know what country you’re talking about, despite the fact that every one would be different… Many of your degrees wouldn’t be recognized here either.. doesn’t mean they aren’t valid.. NUHS does not teach straight chiropractic , or the “Voodoo” you refer to, rather only evidence based physical therapeutics, and the word subluxation is never mentioned. Again. Get educated before making a point, because the points you keep making are false (obviously they’re going to be false, you have no experience to back any of the statements up. All of your research on your points has been done on blogs) … Like I said to Chronic Lyme.. 100 hours out of 4900 is Homeopathy..(which Medical doctors have the opportunity to learn homeopathy as well if they’d like in their rotations).. Have anything to say for those other 4800 hours? or only that 50% of it is bullshit, (without any information or data to back up your statement)

                • Thomas Mohr

                  100 hour homeopathy, 100 hours herbalism, 100 hours Qi, 100 hours TCM which does not work mostly…… plus subjects being taught by people who lack academic qualification… I guess 50% is pretty close.

            • Mark

              Give me a break Michael. ND training is nowhere near that of MD training even for primary care. The only way ND have got as far as they have is because of strong lobbying and advocacy. When they are given rights by a government it is very different than being recognized by the medical community. As Thomas said, an ND degree is pretty well useless anywhere else in the world. If you applied to work for example at the WHO, the application would be thrown in the garbage post haste. Anyone with a 2.5 Gpa and a check book can get an ND degree and you know that is true

              • Michael

                You think strong lobbying is what’s gotten us here? Theres 5000 NDs in the US, compared to 1million MDs. The AMA and pharmaceutical companies have unlimited money and are constantly lobbying against us… I promise you.. We aren’t gaining licensure and scope because of our strong lobbying force… Again. You have no experience with Naturopathic Physicians or Naturopathic Medicine, it is insane for you to believe you are the authority on everything about them… Whats got us licensed, expanded our scope, and kept us licensed is DATA. The thing you love so so much as an academic! In the state of California, where NDs are able to fully diagnose and prescribe pharmaceuticals, this was the current state of things…

                “The National Practitioner Databank, a statistical database maintained by the US Department of Healthand Human Services, has no records of malpractice claims against naturopathic doctors in the United States. According to the Databank, there were 16,925 malpractice payments made in California from 2002-2012, amounting to more than $2.7 billion. None of those malpractice payments were attributed to naturopathic doctors. A 2013 nationwide search by Verdict-Search also found no records of malpractice suits against naturopathic doctors.”

                and you want them to revoke our Medical licenses and not theirs?!?

                • Michael

                  Or take colorado for example. Fought 25 years for licensure. finally they went to the med society, said whats your problem against us. They said its not your training, its that if we let you get licensed, you’ll sign all these vaccine exemptions.. Colorado ND’s said fine, take the ability to treat children out of our scope… They did, Licensing passed the next year. Over the next year data was collected showing NDs actually recommended parents to see their MD in order to follow the CDC vaccine schedule…The other side says, “Well shit, we were wrong…”and the next year a law passes and adds pediatric practice into scope. (it was obviously much more complicated than that… but my point is things work on Data, if the data doesn’t turn out well, things get taken away, which has happened, and rightfully so, but the overall trend is in expansion based on the proof). It has nothing to do with whose compiling the data if the data is 0… malpractice suits are public data.. go ahead and try to find one. Atleast before 2013 when this was written… Like I said before. We have clerkships where we do this. We have grand rounds in the clinics. Some of the ND schools do rotations in hospitals (not all, I am being honest with everything). The wonderful thing about being in Chicago is we are surrounded by academic institutions. Every year we have an event called Integrate Chicago. Where students from MD / DO / and ND schools (and like two DCs attended ) and talk about each others curriculum , each others life. So forgive me If I trust the word of the professors who teach at both MD and ND schools, the Medical students themselves who interact with each other and say its the same, instead of the word of a foreign non clinical scientist.

                • Michael

                  Or take colorado for example. Fought 25 years for licensure. finally they went to the med society, said whats your problem against us. They said its not your training, its that if we let you get licensed, you’ll sign all these vaccine exemptions.. Colorado ND’s said fine, take the ability to treat children out of our scope… They did, Licensing passed the next year. Over the next year data was collected showing NDs actually recommended parents to see their MD in order to follow the CDC vaccine schedule…The other side says, “Well shit, we were wrong…”and the next year a law passes and adds pediatric practice into scope. (it was obviously much more complicated than that… but my point is things work on Data, if the data doesn’t turn out well, things get taken away, which has happened, and rightfully so, but the overall trend is in expansion based on the proof). It has nothing to do with whose compiling the data if the data is 0… malpractice suits are public data.. go ahead and try to find one. Atleast before 2013 when this was written… Like I said before. We have clerkships where we do this. We have grand rounds in the clinics. Some of the ND schools do rotations in hospitals (not all, I am being honest with everything). The wonderful thing about being in Chicago is we are surrounded by academic institutions. Every year we have an event called Integrate Chicago. Where students from MD / DO / and ND schools (and like two DCs attended ) and talk about each others curriculum , each others life. So forgive me If I trust the word of the professors who teach at both MD and ND schools, the Medical students themselves who interact with each other and say its the same, instead of the word of a foreign non clinical scientist.

                • Mark

                  You are talking to me Michael. I am in north america and I am a specialist MD. The referrals I see from naturopaths are garbage. I am not even able to have conversations with them on the phone due to their complete inadequate knowledge. The only time myself or colleagues deal with naturopaths is when they try to delay treatment with their bogus crap like homeopathy.

                  • Michael

                    I don’t know if you are in a licensed state. If you are getting these referrals from “naturopaths” like you say, or Naturopathic Physicians. I don’t use Homeopathy. Can we stop talking about homeopathy lol. I can lobby for it all day, as there are more peer reviewed studies for the benefits of homeopathy than against, despite the fact it is virtually impossible to conduct a double blind trial on an individualized custom therapy.. But I don’t use it, so don’t really want to take the time and talk about it. But even so, I’m not going to defend every Naturopathic Physician in the US. Im sure there are and ones. I’m sure there are bad MDs. That doesn’t mean the curriculum is not rigorous… My problem is all of this hate is based on unfounded dogma. Even if you removed naturopathic therapeutics from the equation, We get 5x’s the training of NPs in allopathic medicine, yet you guys love them. Like I said. We are where the Osteopaths were in the 60s and 70s… no one wanted to open up to them because they were stuck in their dogma.. they provided the proof and data, now are indistinguishable.

                  • Mark

                    You keep telling yourself that…you are nothing like osteopaths. Either you are woo loving pseudo doctors who promote fake diagnoses like adrenal fatigue, chronic lyme, untreated thyroid etc. etc. and use fake and unproven lab tests. Or you try to pretend that you are primary care doctors in which case you are just very very poorly trained practitioners trying to play real doctors.
                    With regards to fighting naturopath scope of practice…99 % of MD do not even know it is going on nor do they traditionally care. However, now that naturopaths are suddenly trying to play real doctors with inadequate training, MD are starting to take notice and I think you will see much more push back.

                  • Michael

                    Just like how DOs promoted diagnoses like arterial insufficient flow, and cranial bone misalignment? ; ) Again. Talk to the Numerous people who have been to both MD and ND school (funny how 90% are always MD first and not the other way…) I was in a PharmD program, but you obviously don’t want to listen to me. Despite me being the only one on this entire thread who has posted articles and data and facts, while everyone else has no arguments other than dogma. You don’t want to have a real conversation with a colleague, you want to sit on your high horse… I work every day in clinic with Medical Doctors and theres nothing but respect both ways. Take your own advice. Be evidence based! Stop spewing unfounded claims, and go sit down with a naturopathic physician. Read a book. Tour NUHS. Then if you’re still unhappy you can call us quacks (a term originally used for medical doctors using mercury and silver to cure syphillis)

                  • Mark

                    Where are these articles with data and facts that you have posted? As i said, myself and most physicians only deal with naturopaths when they try to tell one of my patients that they have a quack diagnosis like adrenal fatigue etc, or when they try to change my standard of care management.
                    As an experiment, I went to a naturopath who is one of the main “professors” at bastyr college. I did not tell him i was a physician. I told him that i am fatigued all the time but otherwise healthy. He said I had low grade thyroid disease. He suggested that i have live blood analysis performed (please tell me you do not believe in that) and the fake allergy testing you guys do. He then gave a shopping list of stuff to buy in his store, I’m sure at big profit. He also had two naturopath students there who seemed to agree with everything this guy said.
                    I know this is anecdotal, but I went after someone like yourself said I should at least give it a try, if i am going to bash naturopaths. So i did and it proved all my suspicions.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Michael, we are not here since yesterday. We have posted data over and over. We had discussions with naturopathic doctors, among them the director of medical sciences [sic !] of one of the better naturopathic colleges. This person did not even know how clinical trials work. We had naturopathic doctors here who where not able to read comparatively straight forward designed studies. If one discusses in depth with a naturopathic doctor (even at a supposedly high ranking academic level), almost always severe educational deficiencies come to light. This row includes you. For instance your argumentation re “we are using the same textbooks”. An example: Dermatology at my medical university is taught by lecturers who have an at least three years residency, are – without exception – seeing douzens of patients (including emergency cases) a day are doing research and and are publishing in top papers. In order to become an associate professor in a dermatologic field you have to have several papers in top peer reviewed journals, you have to have a proven teaching record and you have to have a license in dermatology which takes several years residency. Many of them hold PhDs

                    At NUHS you have associate professors holding a DC, having 1 (in words one) publication which is a case report, and her profile even brags about that.Even there the title is messed up: It is called a “retrospective case report”. Case reports are *always* retrospective.

                    To put things in perspective for you: in my medical university MD lecturers accepted as associate professors have *at least* a residency plus 6 years as an assistant professor plus several publications in top journals plus a proven track of teaching and research. This results in a much, much higher quality of teaching. This is the difference between some naturopathic college and a real university.

                • Thomas Mohr

                  Michael, it is incredibly difficult to sue a naturopath for medical malpractice. The reason is simple, because medical malpractice is filing to provide state-of-the art medical care. Naturopaths do not have a state-of-the art medical care. The poper crime for naturopaths is fraud and concerning this there are quite a lot of cases.

                • Thomas Mohr

                  Michael, it is incredibly difficult to sue a naturopath for medical malpractice. The reason is simple, because medical malpractice is filing to provide state-of-the art medical care. Naturopaths do not have a state-of-the art medical care. The poper crime for naturopaths is fraud and concerning this there are quite a lot of cases.

    • Mark

      what a farce. I just looked it up. Your school has close to a 100 percent acceptance rate with an average gpa of 3.12 (probably all from crappy universities so could probably lower that to 2.5 if went to a top school). As opposed to university of chicago medical school that has a 4% acceptance rate with a GPA of 3.82. Do not even pretend equivalency.

    • http://www.taylorhermes.com Taylor

      Hi Michael, as the author of this article, I’d like to address some issues you raised:

      1) The program at NUHS is advertised as being 10 trimesters, which does not add up to 5 years as you report. I know that all ND programs offer their students flexible tracks to allow students who are struggling with the curriculum to lighten the load. I understand it is time consuming to memorize homeopathic treatments. NUHS offers 5-year and 6-year tracks. I am pretty sure that this is unheard of in medical schools.

      2) Your schools requires twice as much homeopathy as pharmacology. That is a big problem, let alone that homeopathy is taught in the first place.

      3) Your school offers two “internships” which are really clerkships: one for 9 credits and another for 16 credits. This is not a lot of medical training by any measure.

      4) Utah is the only state that requires NDs to complete naturopathic residencies.

      5) The NUHS program is not classified as a medical program by any educational accreditor except the naturopathic accreditation agency, CNME.

      6) Please show me the Illinois state law statues that permit ND students to legally “practice medicine” under the license of a chiropractor. I know that Illinois is unusual in defining DC as “chiropractic physicians,” but it does not classify then as “primary care physicians.”

      7) You are correct that the University of Bridgeport has a chiropractic program and ND program. I was not aware of its DC program. I will correct the post to reflect this.

      8) How can NDs be trained as “primary care physicians” in a state that does not allow them to practice medicine? How can they prescribe drugs? Treating the homeless with homeopathy is not primary care. That is unethical quackery.

      9) The NUHS clinic says that it employs MDs who oversee students and provide comprehensive care. When I called the clinic to make an appointment to see an MD, the receptionist said that the clinic does not employ MDs.

      10) When you are trying to make effective arguments, you will benefit from sticking to the subject at hand (NUHS & NDs), rather than bringing in spurious points about other health professions. My argument in this post is that NUHS cannot possibly train NDs according to the naturopathic accrediting agency’s rules because the program is in an a state that does not license NDs. This means that ND students are either being largely taught by chiropractors, which breaks the CNME’s rules, or that ND students are being taught by NDs who are probably breaking the law by practicing medicine without a license.

      According to NUHS’s own language published on its website, ND students appear to be handing out treatments to the homeless, which by Illinois law is unlawful. If you show me evidence that this is legal, I am happy to consider it.

      • Mark

        Taylor
        If all that you state is true, is there not any recourse. According to our friend Michael, these naturopaths are practicing the same as family doctors without a license to do so. Who has jurisdiction?

        • http://www.taylorhermes.com Taylor

          Probably the agency in Illinois that regulates health professions, which might consider the activity going on at NUHS to be the unlicensed practice of medicine.

      • Thomas Mohr

        Taylor I think you misphrased the sentence: “I understand it is time consuming to memorize homeopathic treatments. NUHS offers 5-year and 6-year tracks.” It should read “[….] it is time wasting to […..]”.

        • http://www.taylorhermes.com Taylor

          Touché!

  • shomer

    great article featuring Britt. the author of naturodiaries…keep it up. https://meredithasplundh.wordpress.com/2011/11/15/guest-editor-be-inspired/

  • Mark

    Britt! Great article. Our friend Michael here is exposing the defiencies in naturopathic education even worse than I imagined. He reports that cardiology is taught by a DC trained in internal medicine? Ophthalmology is taught by a neurologist. Wow!! Isn’t this school in chicago….I would think they would at least be able to find one ophthalmologist to teach them. That is crazy!!