Naturopathic medicine has too much quackery

Troll Ave in Seattle, located a few blocks from Bastyr Center for Natural Health
Troll Ave in Seattle, located a few blocks from Bastyr University’s naturopathic medicine clinic.

I’ve acquired a troll-like follower on Twitter who runs an anonymous website at brittmariehermesfactcheck.com. His or her aim is to verify that the information I publish about naturopathic medicine is true. Spoiler alert: The arguments are less than compelling.

My bottom line is that naturopaths do not receive enough medical training to justify their legislative agenda. Naturopaths insist that they have received an education that is on par with that of a medical doctor. Rather than show why this claim is true, they frequently call me a liar. It does not seem to matter that I’ve shown my course syllabi and other documents from Bastyr University, my alma mater and the self-proclaimed Harvard of naturopathic medicine.

A full-fledged effort to debunk me seems to be underway. Counter petitions have been started. Fake websites have been made. Domain names have been registered using my name in bad faith. I am perplexed, but not entirely, that they choose to target me as a menace to their profession instead of addressing potentially devastating threats they harbor on the inside. I am talking about the blatant quackery of naturopathic medicine.

Here is one example.


Reality-based medicine or naturopathic medicine

Peter Glidden is a licensed naturopath who graduated from Bastyr University in 1991. He lets loose deeply held notions that run rampant in the naturopathic profession. He is also not one to follow the rules. In 2012, he was fined $5,000 and served a cease and desist order for practicing medicine in Illinois without a license. He also runs a show called “Fire your MD now.”

Peter Glidden, ND thinks he knows the answer to the war on cancer.
Peter Glidden, ND thinks he has the answers to the war on cancer.

Glidden believes he is the real deal. In this YouTube video, he states he is a member of a group of:

real doctors, who deserve to be called physicians because there are only a handful of us in the world who are actually taking upon themselves the task of helping to eliminate human suffering.

Glidden goes on to says that medical doctors use therapies that are “based upon a methodology and an understanding of the human body, which is inconsistent with reality.”

Reality.

I am glad Glidden mentioned it. In this online bio, he claims to have reversed Down syndrome of a fetus by using naturopathic medicine and nutritional therapies.

I do not like to use the word “quack,” but I think Glidden is exactly that. Claiming to cure a chromosomal disorder to provoke patients to seek care from him is downright nasty. He is completely out of touch with reality. His advice is dangerous.

Glidden popped up on my radar because a 2012 video of him discussing chemotherapy recently went viral on the Facebook page of the hacker group Anonymous. I get the sense that Anonymous posted the video as a social hacking experiment, and it worked. The video has over 17 million views, 671,000 shares, and prompted Snopes to cover it.

The video is a five minute rant by Glidden asserting that all medical doctors receive kickbacks for prescribing cancer drugs. He goes on to make a variety of absurd, conspiracy-based assertions, including:

We are losing the war on cancer

The reason that people get cancer in the United States and the reason that we have completely lousy outcomes is because medical doctors are driving the research bus.

Research funds should be spent on homeopathy and naturopathy.

I think the quack-o-meter is hitting 11. I mean, 1100.

The sad reality is that Glidden’s ideas are characteristic of the naturopathic belief system. This is especially true for NDs who treat cancer. To a certain extent, all NDs believe that biomedicine lacks a special essence that naturopaths possess. This idea is thoroughly described on the website for the American Board of Naturopathic Oncology, the group responsible for “board certifying” naturopaths in oncology.

Naturopathic cancer treatments have not been proven to replace conventional cancer treatments or to work safely or effectively in tandem with them. Since insurance companies do not cover alternative cancer practices, patients can easily rack up tens, if not, hundreds of thousands of dollars paying for therapies that do not help and that can cause harm. Naturopaths present these services as if they are beneficent, but make no mistake, the supplements, vitamins, and other therapies delivered to patients in a naturopathic clinic are all marked-up and sold to make a profit. This scheme is exactly what Glidden criticizes in the video: selling something that is not effective.

Is all naturopathic medicine quackery?

Through legislative alchemy, naturopaths are being granted medical licenses with scopes of practice that, in my opinion, vastly exceed their capabilities. They want to be able to prescribe pharmaceutical drugs, perform minor surgery, and diagnose and treat serious diseases, including cancer. This is a big deal. It is in the best interest of everyone to have a public discussion about whether or not naturopaths can assume such a role. Naturopaths need to prove that they are competent medical practitioners.

In my opinion, naturopaths have taken significant shortcuts in their medical training, which renders their clinical skill-sets dangerously deficient.

While all professions have a small percentage of charlatans, naturopathic medicine is replete with medical imposters. Quacks, like Glidden, are steeped in fringe theories and scientific gobbledygook, which, of course, stems from what is taught in naturopathic programs and is then encouraged by a community of, for lack of a better term, quacks.

I acknowledge that there are naturopaths who really are trying to be science-based and really want to be good doctors. Great! But they’ll just need to get actual training in medicine first. Naturopathic medicine won’t be respected if its practitioners are trained in a system that stinks of quackery.

Image credit: 1) GeoTrinity, under a CC license. 2) Screengrab.
  • http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org David Gorski

    I like to paraphrase Harriet Hall on this. What is good about naturopathy is not unique to it, and what is unique to it is not good. Conventional medicine can used science-based dietary and lifestyle interventions without the magical thinking; in naturopathy, magical thinking is part and parcel of the discipline, as demonstrated by how homeopathy is a required topic of study and part of the naturopathic licensing examination (NPLEX).

    • http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk Guy Chapman

      I know I have said it before, ad nauseam, but the absolutely fatal flaw with naturopathy (and every other form of quackery) is the absence of any effective mechanism of self-correction. You can start from the basis of utter baloney, and if your system has a credible mechanism for self-correction you will still end up doing good.

      One of the hallmarks of a functional system of self-correction is that treatments get discarded. No field of human endeavour is immune to error, and to assume that naturopathy is unique in being infallible would be as laughable as it is hubristic. There must be treatments which are wrong, it cannot be any other way.

      So where is the list of treatments that naturopaths have discarded?

      *Crickets*

      • NS Alito

        Naturopaths don’t discard treatments because the treatments don’t fail. They were given too soon, too late, or somehow mucked up by the patient.

        The patients do.

        • https://www.hempista.com/cannabis-spa Hempista

          There’s a lot of shaming that goes on in these ‘natural’ communities and professions associated with them. If you are sick it must be because you did not do A. B. C. etc. If your disease is not cured it’s because you didn’t try hard enough.

          • https://www.naturopathicdiaries.com Britt Hermes

            Yes, I have a great guest post by a former patient (of mine!) who explains this nicely.

            • https://www.hempista.com/cannabis-spa Hempista

              I want to read it, can you post the link. 🙂 I think this is a really important topic for patients–to understand that they don’t deserve to be shamed.

        • Damo

          Satire, I hope.

          If not, you are about as credible as one of our presidential candidates (you know the orange one).

      • https://www.hempista.com/cannabis-spa Hempista

        “One of the hallmarks of a functional system of self-correction is that treatments get discarded.”

        Bingo. Sure, one can support some herbals with clinical studies–but homeopathy isn’t supported by anything. Why aren’t naturopathic schools throwing out the obvious bunk and instead focusing on things that have some clinical support? I had no idea that naturopaths studied magic and belief in their medical school until I found this site–I used to think it was just herbs and complementary symptom-type relief stuff. It’s kind of shocking to find out that they are treating cancer and life threatening diseases.

        • The Bofa on the Sofa

          Why aren’t naturopathic schools throwing out the obvious bunk and instead focusing on things that have some clinical support?

          Because they know if they start throwing out “obvious bunk” they are all going down.

          It’s like the sign I saw at our church the other day: “Who are you to judge other people’s sins to be worse than your sins?”

          • https://www.hempista.com/cannabis-spa Hempista

            These are sort of my thoughts on this too. When you throw out the bunk you are left with home care stuff that people don’t need to pay a naturopath for, like hot compresses, herbal tea, swimming, spa, etc. for symptom relief.

        • hicusdicus

          The best way a naturopathic guru can treat life threatening diseases is to practice abstinence.

      • hicusdicus

        Being honest with people who want to pay you for services.

      • http://perfectlycrazydragon.tumblr.com/ One other person is typing.

        Yep. Medicine isn’t perfect but flaws in aircraft design do not prove that magic carpets work.

    • hicusdicus

      Which first one must have a diploma in magic tricks and sleight of hand.

  • http://www.pseudolaw.com Ken S.

    I wonder how well a naturopathic emergency department could have dealt with my electrical burn, skull fracture, concussion, displaced collarbone fracture, and cervical spine compression fractures. I mean, they are physicians, right?

    • has

      Perhaps a quick polarity reverse on the ol’ energy healing plus a nice bottle of eau du stepladder to finish you off?

      • http://www.pseudolaw.com Ken S.

        Like cures like, so I guess they’d apply a single electron to my finger to heal the electrical burn…

        • Colin Kynoch

          Far too strong a dose.

        • hicusdicus

          But first the finger must be inserted where the sun is in an eternal eclipse.

  • Thomas Mohr

    Peter Glidden is a prime example that naturopaths have no clue of science. A quote from his pamphlet: “Down’s syndrome is a genetic disease which is irreversible once the child is born. [….] Upon receiving the diagnosis, the mother started an aggressive Naturopathic nutrition program and about seven months later, the child was born completely normal. This happened because the gene that codes for
    Down’s syndrome is turned on by the absence of nutrients in the mother’s system.”

    This contains several severe errors. First, genetic diseases are irreversible from conception onward. Secondly, Down Syndrome is an entire chromosome too much (21 to be exact) and not just a gene being turned on and thirdly, it can not be turned off. Despite having allegedly the same education as an MD, he spreads things for which every medical student in the first semester would receive a straight F.

    • Banrion

      Lets be fair, that level of detail about Down Syndrome is covered in most high school biology classes. It is the classic example given to introduce primary students to the concept of chromosomes and chromosome errors.

      • The Bofa on the Sofa

        I remember in one of the network “movies of the week” about a guy with Down Syndrome, starring the guy that played Corky in Life Goes On, he (Corky) gave a speech about having Down Syndrome, and explained how it came about because he had an extra chromosome. He joked, “Anybody want my extra chromosome?”

        He got it. As you note, high school students get it. Naturopaths? Ha.

      • The Bofa on the Sofa

        I remember in one of the network “movies of the week” about a guy with Down Syndrome, starring the guy that played Corky in Life Goes On, he (Corky) gave a speech about having Down Syndrome, and explained how it came about because he had an extra chromosome. He joked, “Anybody want my extra chromosome?”

        He got it. As you note, high school students get it. Naturopaths? Ha.

    • Petticoat Philosopher

      You don’t even need to be a medical student! I learned what causes Down’s Syndrome in high school biology. It is a standard example used in high school and college biology courses to explain what a trisomy is (which is covered in pretty much any few-weeks-long genetics unit). Any teenager who doesn’t sleep through class every day is a better scientist than this fool.

      Of course he’s much worse than a fool. Telling women that they can “cure” their fetus’ Down’s Syndrome in utero has to be one of those most evil things I’ve heard recently. For one thing, are these people ever going to run out of ways to obsessively police the behavior of pregnant and breastfeeding women and then telling them it’s their fault when their children end up less-than-perfect? Enough! Plus, assuming he is dealing with some women whose fetuses actually have Down’s Syndrome (and not normal ones that have been diagnosed through some bogus test he devised so that he can take credit for them being born healthy and keep the mothers coming back for more woo), people who are about to give birth to a child with special needs need a lot of support and preparation for the challenges they are going to face, not false promises that the whole situation can be avoided with the right bogus diet. With genetic testing, parents don’t need to be blindsided by conditions like Down’s Syndrome anymore, but it seems this guy wants to turn back time on that.

      There’s a special place in hell…

      • https://www.hempista.com/cannabis-spa Hempista

        So right. And it seems like a lot of these wild claims can easily be refuted with simple high school biology. Do they believe in a flat earth too?

      • hicusdicus

        Special place in Hell and that brings up which came first, God or the collection plate?

  • The Bofa on the Sofa

    I mentioned it in another post, and I’ll say it again here:

    Bofa’s Law
    If the defense of a profession or group consists of “Not all of them are bad” then that profession or group has a serious problem.

    As you say, all professions have charlatans. However, when you talk about bad lawyers, the defense is, “There are some slime bag ambulance chasers that make lawyers look bad, but most aren’t that way. And we need them to deal with the legal system.”

    But when you talk about bad chiropractors, the response is “Not all of them are quacks” and it’s usually their personal chiropractor who is unlike all the others. Also applies to naturopaths and CPMs (midwives).

    • EBMOD

      Politicians as well. Everyone tends to hate congress . . . but then re-elect the same buffoon from their own district over and over.

      Bottom line is that these are all tribalistic behaviors. We defend our own for better or worse, often regardless of evidence…

      • The Bofa on the Sofa

        We defend our own for better or worse, often regardless of evidence…

        But we don’t. And even the defense is telling. As in Bofa’s Law, when the defense is “not all of them are bad” that’s a problem. I might defend my profession, but there it is “there are some bad apples.” And at the same time, we (the “good” ones) are trying to weed them out. We want to get rid of the “bad apples.” Naturopaths don’t. Chiros don’t. CPMs don’t. They know that if they actually try to uphold standards, it’s going to come back to them, because the problems are endemic.

  • The Bofa on the Sofa

    I mentioned it in another post, and I’ll say it again here:

    Bofa’s Law
    If the defense of a profession or group consists of “Not all of them are bad” then that profession or group has a serious problem.

    As you say, all professions have charlatans. However, when you talk about bad lawyers, the defense is, “There are some slime bag ambulance chasers that make lawyers look bad, but most aren’t that way. And we need them to deal with the legal system.”

    But when you talk about bad chiropractors, the response is “Not all of them are quacks” and it’s usually their personal chiropractor who is unlike all the others. Also applies to naturopaths and CPMs (midwives).

  • Marcel

    Considering the advances in the treatment of cancer over the past decade alone, none of which were contributed by naturopaths, for Glidden to claim “we are losing the war on cancer”, by default, he can only be referring to naturopaths. By the very act of lobbying to prescribe pharmaceuticals, naturopaths have admitted the inadequacies of their so-called natural or “alternative” medicines, regardless of the fact that many pharmaceutical drugs are derived from or partly based on the chemical structures of natural products. When the original structures are less effective and too toxic for clinical use, derivatives are developed to serve in their place, but that has nothing to do with naturopathy.

    • David N. Andrews MEd, CPSE

      “By the very act of lobbying to prescribe pharmaceuticals, naturopaths
      have admitted the inadequacies of their so-called natural or ‘alternative’ medicines,”

      Excellent point!

  • http://naturocrit.podbean.com/ Naturocrit Podcast and Blog

    The Naturocrit Podcast and Blog:

    Naturopathy’s response is not surprising.

    I’d written in a recent podcast [s02e02a2]:

    “Usually, when you find faults with a PROFESSION, it takes that criticism to heart and says ‘thank you for helping us improve’, by the way. But, like I said with naturopathy, criticism leads to a response of discrimination!”

    It’s so much easier for them.

    And ND Glidden is simply a gift that keeps on giving…

    -r.c.

  • David N. Andrews MEd, CPSE

    I’ve had a clinical instructor of naturopathy trying to convince me that he is evidence-based. You know who I mean. He’s accused me of insulting him. But he doesn’t seem to understand that evidence-based medicine doesn’t mean what he seems to think it means.

  • Mark

    Britt:

    You are doing tremendous good to the field of medicine. These attacks are proof of your effectiveness.

    You may thing that your ND education was a waste. Ironically, the path you have gone down has done more good for public health than if you went straight to medical school.

  • Zulus

    everytime I hear a Dr. speak some truth about the Medical Industry they turn out to be off the turnip truck 🙁 The things Peter Glidden say about the Medical Community when it comes to Cancer treatment is true, but that comment about reversing Down Syndrome is like he went to a party and took a crap in the punch bowl and then look up and say “what’s wrong?” 🙁

    I always saw Naturopathic medicine Professionals as people who are there to teach us how to prevent disease and help with teaching us to care for ourselves with the right herbs and foods.

    not inject us with anything that is harder than a vitamin C infusion lol

    • Thomas Mohr

      Zulus, coincidentially I am from the field. Glidden knows about Cancer as much as he knows about Down Syndrome. Quote: “[…] cancer, diabetes and eczema are still around, still causing massive amounts of suffering, and are still considered incurable (even though Naturopaths cure these conditions all
      of the time).” There are studies comparing naturopathic medicine with conventional treatment and the results are very clear. Naturopathic treatment results in abysmal curing rates. Gidden knows nothing and is a dangerous quack.

    • DoctorDJ

      …and I’ve got a bridge you might be interested in purchasing…

      • Marcel

        We could reduce it to powder and make a homeopathic remedy for gullibility. The big question is whether it would work on homeopaths.

    • Marcel

      Given that around 90% of vitamins on the market, including vitamin C, are synthesized, the ‘natur’ in naturopathic is obviously a fabrication. But then, what’s so natural about intravenous injections and since when can a vitamin or, for that matter, any other substance, be called a naturopathic medicine? I ran the same argument by a pharmacy chain of pharmacies where tinctures of medicinal plants were labelled “naturopathic remedies”. Since the same plants were used in tinctures long before the belief system of naturopathy, the chain is clearly playing to the marketplace of gullible consumers ‘injected’ with the delusional ideas of naturopaths. For all I know, the pharmacists were just as gullible. On another shelf, they were selling homeopathic remedies.

      • Ron Roy

        SHILL DEFINITION: anyone who’s against anything that will dig into the profits made by the MEDICAL MAFIA for example: herbs / vitamin mineral supplements / organic foods / anything labeled natural. They are for GMOs / glyphosate / vaccines / drugs / chemotherapy and just about everything else that will harm the immune system. Just thought I’d throw this out there for everyone to see.

        • joe

          Notice to all posters here,Ron has no integrity,I challenged him on another site,but he declined,just thought I’d throw it out there for all to see.

          • Ron Roy

            joe you know you’re in no condition to challenge anybody. Now go back to sleep and keep dreaming.

        • http://perfectlycrazydragon.tumblr.com/ One other person is typing.

          Do you have a testable falsifiable definition that runs both ways yet, Ron Roy?

    • joe

      You might like to check that with the late MR Steve Jobs.

      • knotfreak

        Actually, as much as I’d like it to be so, it cannot be firmly established that Mr. Jobs would have lived–or ever lived longer–if he had not delayed his cancer surgery. David Gorski has discussed this in detail over at SBM or Respectful Insolence (probably both). He had such a rare type of pancreatic cancer that is not really enough data to know.

        • joe

          This is an excerpt from Forbes magazine,the key words here are—LIFE SAVING SURGERY —According to Steve Jobs’ biographer, Walter Isaacson, the Apple AAPL -0.01%
          mastermind eventually came to regret the decision he had made years
          earlier to reject potentially life-saving surgery in favor of
          alternative treatments like acupuncture, dietary supplements and juices

          • Ron Roy

            In the September 18, 1984 New York Times and in an article in the
            September issue of Science ’84, Dr. Hayden Bush, director of a regional
            cancer center in Ontario, Canada, made the following points
            (paraphrasing):
            There is no real advance in cancer treatments. If there was, we’d
            see an improvement in mortality rates. What has happened is that there
            is now an emphasis in early diagnosis which starts the “survival clock”
            sooner. So that even with no real change in survival duration there
            would be an apparent improvement in survival rates by starting the clock
            at an earlier time due to early diagnosis.

            Dr. John Baylor, an official of the National Cancer Institute, ra
            Harvard bio-statistician, and a consultant to the New England Journal
            of Medicine, said on the Today show in December 1984:
            A lot of early lesions that are not cancer at all are being
            counted as cancer through these early detection methods. These people
            will go on to lead a normal life anyway the lesions will clear up by
            themselves. But they include these cases as cancer thus polluting the
            pool of real cancer patients and making it seem that survival rates have
            risen.
            The above article clearly demonstrates the futility of
            conventional medical treatment for cancer. This raises the question,
            what alternatives are left to the cancer victim?

            • Thomas Mohr

              Ron, with all respect, but did you take a look at a calendar recently ? We have 2016, i.o.w. the statements you quote are over a third of a century old. In science this is stone age. Just to mention a few things that happened in biomedical science: Development of sophisticated cell culture models and research methods. Decoding of the human genome. Decoding of pathways related to cancer. Development of -omics methods to detect subtypes of cancer, etc, etc. I.o.W. the papers you quote are stone age.

              Since 1991 (that is still a quarter of a century ago !), the overall mortality rate has dropped by 23% (Cancer statistics, 2016 Rebecca L. Siegel MPH1,*, Kimberly D. Miller MPH2 andAhmedin Jemal DVM, PhD3 DOI: 10.3322/caac.21332).

              Re lesions clearing up by themselves, yeah, sure, some will. Some will not. It is way easier to remove a benign lesion (which fixes the problem in 99.99% of cases) than to risk malignant transformation. It is like having a small cavity in the teeth. Some will not deepen, some will. If they do a hefty treatment is necessary. BTW a benign lesion is *not* counted as cancer.

              • Ron Roy

                Time has no bearing on truth. If the research of real scientists had not been squelched by the MEDICAL MAFIA all diseases would have been easily cured. An example of real scientists: Claude Bernard, Pierre Antoine Bechamp, Gunther Enderline and the greatest of them all Royal Raymond Rife.

                • Thomas Mohr

                  Ron, I knew Enderlein and Rife would show up some time. One only needs to read the Wikipedia articles, particularly the fraud section in the article about Rife. Aside that, I do not think that somebody quoting a heavily outdated New York Times and the Today Show instead of real statitics is capable to judge about scientific competency. BTW, a decrease of mortality of 23% disproves your quotes as they themselves say: Quote: “If there was, we’d see an improvement in mortality rates” A drop of the mortality rate by 23% is EXACTLY that.while it is true that Time has no bearing on truth, time has a heavy bearing on anything that develops such as cancer therapy.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Ah yes cancer therapy: The means by which oncologists will take every dime you’ve got, make your life a living hell and then say ” oh he / she would have died anyway. Yeah that cancer therapy.

                  • David

                    Canter therapy has changed so dramatically over the last few years it is phenomenal. Patients with stage 4 melanoma now live indefinitely with treatment! That is phenomenonal to me. There tumor melt away on scans. Maybe you should read the literature a little more.

                  • David

                    And by the way, these immunotherapy drugs have very limited side effects with no hair loss, less nausea and voniting etc? Ron Roy did you even know about the development of these drugs and the effects they have had

                  • Ron Roy

                    Really I’ll have to tell a friend of mine’s girlfriend she can remove her hairpiece because her hair loss is all in her head. I’ll pass this on again thanks.

                  • David

                    Ron, instead of just putting your fingers in your ears and saying “lalalala” like a little kid, why don’t you try to learn something. Why don’t you read about the difference between immunotherapy agents and traditional chemotherapy Instead of reading about your hit list of scientists with disproven theories

                  • Ron Roy

                    Ron, instead of just putting your fingers in your ears and saying
                    “lalalala” like a little kid, why don’t you try to learn something. That wasn’t me you were looking in a mirror. No go to bed without your dinner for lying.

                  • hicusdicus

                    Punked again.

                  • hicusdicus

                    You actually have a friend who has a girl friend??????????????

                  • Ron Roy

                    Unlike your mentor some of us like women.

                  • hicusdicus

                    I agree, they are very handy at cooking,cleaning and earning a living you should try one some time.

                  • Ron Roy

                    My woman doesn’t have to do any of those things she does them by choice. Oh and she doesn’t work except around the house. Your’s on the other hand……………

                  • AutismDadd

                    You mean in the other hand

                  • AutismDadd

                    There was a lots of interest in cattle and monkeys from our learned shills

                  • AutismDadd

                    What’s voniting? I couldn’t couldn’t find that word, is it Austrian?

                  • David

                    And by the way, these immunotherapy drugs have very limited side effects with no hair loss, less nausea and voniting etc? Ron Roy did you even know about the development of these drugs and the effects they have had

                  • Petticoat Philosopher

                    Have you really never known a cancer survivor whose life was saved by oncologists and cancer therapy? Chemo sucks. I remember my aunt going through it nearly 15 years ago for breast cancer and it was terrible. Thing is, she remembers it too because she is still alive because it cured her and saved her life.

                    And that was already a long time ago. Huge innovations have been made in those nearly 15 years.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Cancer survivor emmm? For everyone that I know that survived chemo I can name 5 who died most likely from the chemo. 7 relatives died of chemo opps I mean cancer. How many oncologists, like doctor Fata, have treated people for cancer they don’t have? That would bring up their cure rates wouldn’t it.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Ron, you have not the slightest idea about medical science. An example how Rife worked: “The needle for Inoculation is filled with triple sterilized petroleum Jelly and the inocleum and passed no less than 20 MM under the epidermis to the point of inoculation.” The animal is an albino rat with intact immune system. He then observed the development of a tumor. No wonder. If you inject petroleum jelly into somebody with intact immune system you will get an inflammatory tumor. So this experiment is fatally flawed. In Science we have a principle. Crap in -> Crap out.

                  • Ron Roy

                    I think that RIfe and all the doctors / scientists who worked with him knew just a little more about the immune system that a shill like yourself. You have an agenda which thankfully is loosing ground. People are waking up and realizing the corruption of your employers. You know the pharmaceutical syndicate known as the MEDICAL MAFIA.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Let me explain something to you. It does not matter what *you* think. Rife has been proven wrong in almost every respect, with regard to polymorphism of bacteria, the reason of breast cancer and even his microscope being able to see “life” viruses – something that does not exist btw.

                  • Ron Roy

                    What Rife saw were bacteria that had mutated to the size of a virus. If you had read anything about him you would know that but……….. You would never admit Rife was right because your employers would fire you.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    I have read about hm, including the construction of his microscope which would violate several laws of physics. As for being fired from my employer, that is a nice joke. My employer am I.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Rife was ahead of his time. Can you point out to me where you think he violated the laws of physics? I will forward your answer to a physics professor.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Read about the aperture of a microscope and why you can not see viruses using light,

                  • Ron Roy

                    If you had a basic knowledge of microscopy you would have understood how Rife used different prisms etc. to accomplish the high magnification he achieved. If you can’s see viruses with a light microscope explain how Gaston Naessens in Canada can see viruses with a light microscope he developed. Anyone to this day is welcomed to his lab and see his microscope and his work.

                  • hicusdicus

                    I think it is called magic.

                  • hicusdicus

                    I doubt a physics professor would acknowledge knowing you.

                  • Ron Roy

                    What laws of physics?

                  • http://www.taylorhermes.com Taylor

                    He claimed to achieve optical power that is impossible to view anything. His magnification was claimed to be so powerful that the field of view of whatever he was visualizing would be about the wavelength of light, which means you are seeing nothing.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    It was not the magnification, but the resolution to be exact. Due to the wave nature of light there are several limiting factors with (f.i. the Abbe limit) which can be circumvented by highly sophisticated techniques (such as RESOLFT) which require computers – which were clearly not available in the 30ties.

                  • Ron Roy

                    I see you don’t understand the use of prisims.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    And you do not understand the Abbe Limit and it’s implication for light microscopy. Heck, you can’t even *spell* prism correctly.

                  • Ron Roy

                    OMG I made a spelling error. I’ve seen spelling errors made by professional writers so I guess I’m in good company.

                  • Ron Roy

                    If you would simply Google Royal Raymond Rife the explanation you’re looking for is there. He developed something new. In your narrow minded reasoning all the medical people who worked with Rife lied when they verified what he could see and do. The authors of the Journal of the Franklin Institute lied the authors or all the newspaper articles lied. How easy it is to win an argument by accusing everyone of lying. Your lack of knowledge is showing. Mengele I mean Gorski must be proud of you.

                  • Ron Roy

                    If you would simply Google Royal Raymond Rife the explanation you’re looking for is there. He developed something new. In your narrow minded reasoning all the medical people who worked with Rife lied when they verified what he could see and do. The authors of the Journal of the Franklin Institute lied the authors or all the newspaper articles lied. How easy it is to win an argument by accusing everyone of lying. Your lack of knowledge is showing. Mengele I mean Gorski must be proud of you.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Quote from Rife’s writings: ” It is to be understood that the source of illumination applied to this
                    instrument is in no wise true polarized light (that is, no nickel
                    prisms are used), but is a monochromatic beam of variable angles of
                    incidence passed through the direct transmitted light, refracting
                    different colors according to the chemical composition of the organism
                    under observation. This principle of light control reveals the organism
                    in its own particular color in a brilliantly illuminated field.”

                    Rife himself admits that he uses monochromatic light, i.o.W. the Abbe limit applies. Moreover, his paper clearly proves that he did not understand the nature of light (i.e. te dual wave-particle theory)

                  • Jonathan Graham

                    all the medical people who worked with Rife lied when they verified what he could see and do.

                    …or were mistaken, not qualified to make the judgement, relying on a mistaken source, or were not reported correctly in the source you are reading.

                    The authors of the Journal of the Franklin Institute lied

                    …or were mistaken, not qualified to make the judgement, relying on a mistaken source, or were not reported correctly in the source you are reading.

                    newspaper articles lied.

                    …or were mistaken, not qualified to make the judgement, relying on a mistaken source, or were not reported correctly in the source you are reading.

                    How easy it is to win an argument by accusing everyone of lying

                    I’ll just point out that this is exactly what you do – you accuse all medical journals of lying. Not to mention that you also have to be calling a lot of other people liars if you are claiming that Rife is correct. 🙂

                  • Ron Roy

                    Right Johnny anyone who is a threat to your employers doesn’t know what they’re doing / lies / are mistaken / are fraudsters / not qualified etc. Johnny you and all the other Gorskiits are the ones perpetuating lies and fraud at the cost of human misery. You’re a perfect example of a sociopath you have absolutely no conscience and will say and do anything for money. Shame on you.

                  • Jonathan Graham

                    I’m just pointing out that while you demanded that the only explanation was that everyone was lying and implicitly argued that such an event was unlikely such is not the case. People can be unqualified, people can make mistakes, people can rely on a mistaken source and the source YOU are reading can simply be in error.

                    You, very conveniently leave out all these other – very likely – possibilities. So you can convince yourself that it’s unlikely that Rife is wrong.

                    …and of course in order to believe Rife you have to accuse a much, much, much, much larger group of people to be also wrong. So your argument doesn’t really do anywhere. 🙂

                    Incidentally a sociopath isn’t a medical diagnosis and clearly I won’t say anything to for money. You can’t even find a single case of me lying here. Yet if I would say anything for money that should be terribly easy. Unless of course I’m not your made-up definition of sociopath and/or not being paid to post.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Have you visited Hammy’s website? He banned me of course because I wouldn’t bend over and join the dark side.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Hammy has a website? What’s it called?

                  • AutismDadd

                    I forget how I found it, probably through his profile. I’m sure he wants it hushed up. Hr spent a bunch of time on The Aluminum Papers site too. I’ll see what I can do about finding it.

                  • AutismDadd

                    I forget how I found it, probably through his profile. I’m sure he wants it hushed up. Hr spent a bunch of time on The Aluminum Papers site too. I’ll see what I can do about finding it.

                  • AutismDadd

                    you can’t spell medicine in another post…some genius

                  • David

                    Ron Roy has a hard time understanding basic scientific concepts. He feels that the proposed ability of antioxidants to reduce oxidative stress, can be extrapolated to reverting genetic defects such as cystic fibrosis. It was better when he didn’t try to explain himself and just spouted his garbage.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Cystic fibrosis is easily preventable ( I know you didn’t learn this in quack school ) all the mother has to do is make sure she doesn’t have a selenium deficiency. See wasn’t that easy?

                  • David

                    You really are a whack job

                  • Ron Roy

                    Greatttttttttttt reply. Not

                  • AutismDadd

                    So many shills…so little time

                  • Ron Roy

                    Again you amaze me with your intellectual replies:

                    In 1978, I
                    (Wallach) discovered the first agreed upon CF [cystic fibrosis] in
                    nonhumans; the test animals were NASA monkeys; the diagnosis was agreed
                    to by experts from Johns Hopkins Medical School, Emory University and
                    the CF Foundation!!!! Once they realized that this wasn’t a genetic
                    accident but CF was a recreatable selenium deficiency, they fired me
                    within 24 hours’ notice, 10 days after my wife had died. Dr. Paul de
                    St. Agnese stated that “if anything important was to be discovered on
                    CF, it would be in his NIH laboratory.” Since 1978, we have treated 450
                    CF patients with excellent results; we have essentially cured infants
                    three months old who started on the program (they are 12 years old
                    today) and have helped CF women have healthy pregnancies and normal
                    babies!

                    [Wallach goes on to cite additional evidence that cystic fibrosis is
                    caused by a selenium deficiency and throughout his books reveals methods
                    for treating CF patients.] – Joel Wallach, DVM, ND, and Ma Lan, MD, MS,
                    Let’s Play Doctor!, p. 77.

                    Wallach was a hard-working Veterinarian and research scientist, his
                    first major project a cause-of-death study for thousands of zoo animals.
                    His research then expanded to cause-of-death in humans, and he
                    eventually became an ND (Naturopathic Doctor) in order to treat humans
                    with nutrient-based therapies used by Vets and farmers for their
                    animals. His patients “were treated like dogs, but they got better.”
                    He particularly wanted to treat cystic fibrosis cases, as no one else in
                    the field was willing to accept a new paradigm for the disease. As he
                    explains in his books, there are no health insurance policies for farm
                    animals — Vets and farmers are very familiar with the common deficiency
                    causes of most disease, and blend supplements into farm feed to prevent
                    such disorders from occurring in the fist place. Wallach is very aware
                    of simple deficiency diseases being passed off as genetics or other
                    complicated theories. He wrote several books covering the vitamin and
                    mineral deficiencies that cause these “genetic” diseases in humans.

                    So am I saying that breast cancer and OCD are deficiency diseases? Yes
                    (to OCD) and no (to cancer), but they certainly aren’t “genetic” in
                    nature

                  • Jonathan Graham

                    Wallach was simply mistaken. He didn’t bother to look at epidemiology. Keshan disease (which can result from Selenium deficiency) is more endemic in China than anywhere else but their CF rate is similar to Japan. Which has virtually no Keshan disease.

                    http://www.who.int/genomics/publications/en/HGN_WB_04.02_report.pdf

                  • Jonathan Graham

                    Wallach was simply mistaken. He didn’t bother to look at epidemiology. Keshan disease (which can result from Selenium deficiency) is more endemic in China than anywhere else but their CF rate is similar to Japan. Which has virtually no Keshan disease.

                    http://www.who.int/genomics/publications/en/HGN_WB_04.02_report.pdf

                  • JGC

                    Cystic fibrosis is a disease that is genetic in origin: by what mechanism does supplementing a pregnant woman’s diet with selenium alter her developing child’s genome?

                  • Mark

                    because according to one of the quacks ron roy follows…he says the medical mafia is lying that it is a genetic defect. It is due to maternal selenium deficiency. Even though it has been shown without a doubt that it is an abnormality of the CFTR gene with recessive inheritance…ron roy believes anything he reads as long as it is “natural”.

                  • Ron Roy

                    In 1978, I
                    (Wallach) discovered the first agreed upon CF [cystic fibrosis] in
                    nonhumans; the test animals were NASA monkeys; the diagnosis was agreed
                    to by experts from Johns Hopkins Medical School, Emory University and
                    the CF Foundation!!!! Once they realized that this wasn’t a genetic
                    accident but CF was a recreatable selenium deficiency, they fired me
                    within 24 hours’ notice, 10 days after my wife had died. Dr. Paul de
                    St. Agnese stated that “if anything important was to be discovered on
                    CF, it would be in his NIH laboratory.” Since 1978, we have treated 450
                    CF patients with excellent results; we have essentially cured infants
                    three months old who started on the program (they are 12 years old
                    today) and have helped CF women have healthy pregnancies and normal
                    babies!

                    [Wallach goes on to cite additional evidence that cystic fibrosis is
                    caused by a selenium deficiency and throughout his books reveals methods
                    for treating CF patients.] – Joel Wallach, DVM, ND, and Ma Lan, MD, MS,
                    Let’s Play Doctor!, p. 77.

                    Wallach was a hard-working Veterinarian and research scientist, his
                    first major project a cause-of-death study for thousands of zoo animals.
                    His research then expanded to cause-of-death in humans, and he
                    eventually became an ND (Naturopathic Doctor) in order to treat humans
                    with nutrient-based therapies used by Vets and farmers for their
                    animals. His patients “were treated like dogs, but they got better.”
                    He particularly wanted to treat cystic fibrosis cases, as no one else in
                    the field was willing to accept a new paradigm for the disease. As he
                    explains in his books, there are no health insurance policies for farm
                    animals — Vets and farmers are very familiar with the common deficiency
                    causes of most disease, and blend supplements into farm feed to prevent
                    such disorders from occurring in the fist place. Wallach is very aware
                    of simple deficiency diseases being passed off as genetics or other
                    complicated theories. He wrote several books covering the vitamin and
                    mineral deficiencies that cause these “genetic” diseases in humans.

                    So am I saying that breast cancer and OCD are deficiency diseases? Yes
                    (to OCD) and no (to cancer), but they certainly aren’t “genetic” in
                    nature

                  • JGC

                    Mutations in the CTFR gene do not cause cystic fibrosis?

                    Multiple identified oncogenes like BRCA, SRC, RAS, PTEN, etc. have nothing at all to do with the development of cancers?

                    Really?

                    Ron, at this point I’m starting to fear it will do little good to simply try to explain why you’re wrong to you–to make any progress I would need to find a way to somehow understand it for you as well. But I’ll address Wallach’s claim for the sake of others entertained by our dialogue.

                    Dr. Wallach’s is as you note trained as a veterinarian, and has acquired a degree in naturopathy along the way. His hypothesis is that not only CF but all disease as well as aging are caused by mineral deficiencies but has been thoroughly falsified. No independent researchers, for example, have been able to replicate his claimed findings. The actual cause of CF–mutations in the CTFR gene involved in sodium channel organization/function–was identified in 1989, 11 years after Wallach first claimed CF was caused by a deficiency in and could be cured by supplementary selenium. CF patients, contrary to Wallach’s claims, are not found to be deficient is selenium (see PMID: 8504531).

                  • Ron Roy

                    If a selenium deficiency in the mother does not cause the baby to be born with cystic fibrosis. How do you explain that when he restricted selenium from monkeys the offspring were born with cystic fibrosis?

                  • Jonathan Graham

                    Simple. No such thing happened. Animal models for CF use mutations in the CF transmembrane conductance regulator[1]. Restricting selenium doesn’t knockout CFTR so whatever the he was doing it wasn’t comparable to an actual animal CF model.

                    But severely depriving an animal of selenium is probably going to cause something untoward to happen. Wallach (or whatever doofus you’re talking about today) simply mistook some aspects of these symptoms for CF.

                    For example severe selenium cattle can cause chronic diarrhoea[2] and *GASP* people with CF can have bowel problems[3]. *GASP* the cattle MUST have CF.

                    [1]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4360044/
                    [2]https://www.agric.wa.gov.au/feeding-nutrition/selenium-deficiency-cattle
                    [3]http://www.cysticfibrosis.ca/about-cf/what-is-cystic-fibrosis

                  • Ron Roy

                    FAIL ! Wallach was right that’s why he got into so much trouble with the MEDICAL MAFIA. He upset their apple cart. Your head’s getting bigger.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    You shot yourself into your knee again and now you are playing Rumpelstiltskin with the medical mafia. That is not how things work, maybe only in the mind of someone equivalent to a 5 year old child having a tantrum.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Tommy you’re just like Johnny you both have swollen heads and refuse to believe that there are things out there that are above your mental capacity to understand.

                  • Jonathan Graham

                    I just think information needs to be weighed. You don’t. You believe that you can call all the research which goes against something you believe in biased and assume there are no biases or other errors in research that you think confirms your belief.

                    Interesting bit:

                    https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1144&dat=19780911&id=wHkqAAAAIBAJ&sjid=YlgEAAAAIBAJ&pg=2746,4819150&hl=en

                    This article implies that the experiment you describe with monkeys was never completed. He PROPOSED it but then was fired. His FIRST finding wasn’t about selenium deficiency at all it was about feed massive amounts of Polyunsaturated oil and then seeing lesions which he claimed were similar to those seen in CF. That is light years away from the claim that you made.

                    His only other monkey experiment was with a SINGLE which according to the staff could not be replicated. So this casts even more doubt on your nonsense ideas.

                  • Jonathan Graham

                    Well…

                    a) As already discussed a back-of-the-envelope epidemiology check shows that he is unlikely to be correct. You would not expect Japan and China to have similar CP prevalence.

                    b) As stated there is no animal model for CP that doesn’t involve a CFTP variant. So his models aren’t CP models and no diagnostic criteria is presented which demonstrates that CP is present purely symptomatically. Anyone who was a researcher would realize that is precisely what is needed to make their argument. A dude in a labcoat can’t just say “Hey, that’s CP”.

                    c) So we are left with the idea that he observed an illness due to selenium deficiency. Nothing else fits the evidence.

                  • David

                    I just want to make sure I am keeping up with your list of delusion Ron Roy

                    So Ron Roy. To add to your list of conspiracies

                    1). Vaccines are a sham and cause more harm than good

                    2) the cure for cancer was found by rife but is being suppressed by the medical mafia

                    3) hiv does not cause AIDS and you would be happy to be injected with the HIV virus

                    4). World Trade Center did not collapse due to terrorist plane

                    5). The government is poisoning us with Chem trails so big pharma can get rich

                    6). any genetic abnormality can be reversed after 3 years of proper diet. Cystic fibrosis etc.

                    7) There are no such thing as genetic diseases just mineral deficiencies.

                    8) GMOs are evil, poisoning the population and leading to diseases that the medical mafia attributes to genetics, auto-immune and infections.

                    I’m keeping a tally of your delusions. Please feel free to add to list.

                  • David

                    I want to make sure I’m up to date on your conspiracies. What about other not health related conspiracies…..area 51? reptilian elite? elvis is alive? who shot JFK? moon landings?

                  • Ron Roy

                    I’m going to have difficulty explaining this to a medical sheeple but here goes: 1. Right 2. Right 3. Right 4. Right. Oh you didn’t mention how number 7 went down or how a reporter could say ” number seven just collapse “. When it collapsed twenty five minute after she said it did. ( your doing pretty good so far ) 5. Wrong You took thet out of context. On pupose I presume. 6.Caught me in a mistake I meant 3 generations of proper diet. ( It takes three yeras to undo genetic damage ) No grade on that one my mistake. 7. ? Genetic damage can happen from lack of nutrients. I’ll give you a right on that one. 8. It’s not so much the GMOs but the herbicides that are causing the problems with our health. I won’t score that one. I won’t ad to this list because you had a hard time with just 8 facts.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    If selenium deficiency in the mother *does* cause cystic fibrosis, how do you explain cystic fibrosis is *not* associated with Keshan syndrome widely found in Northe Eastern China, and to some extent in New zealand and Finland ? As I said, your hypotheses simply do not fly.

                  • Ron Roy

                    The diagnosis of CRMS means that you or your child does not have CF.
                    However, the diagnosis of CRMS does mean that you or your child may
                    experience problems in the parts of the body often affected by CF.
                    Nutr221 Minerals

                    Test 3

                    QuestionAnswer

                    Used in iron assessment and indicates a SEVERE iron deficiency (when none is left, blood levels drop) chromium
                    Deficiency can cause a rare heart disorder known as Keshan Disease Selenium

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Are you incapable of reading ? I do not talk about CRMS, I talk about Keshan disease. Keshan is a disease associated with Se deficiency. If CF is caused by selenium deficiency, these two diseases must appear together. Are you really that stupid ?

                  • Ron Roy

                    No they don’t.

                  • Ron Roy

                    No they don’t.

                  • JGC

                    There’s nothing to explain, Ron: Wallach’s claim is essentially anecdotal: in the late 1960’s (he observed pancreatic lesions similar to those found in CF patients in monkeys whose mothers he claimed were deficient in selenium and fatty acids, made the leap of faith the lesions in and of themselves were sufficient to be diagnostic of CF, and concluded that CF was caused by maternal deficiency in selenium and fatty acids.
                    This ‘finding’ of course prompted other CF researchers to investigate the claim further. None were able to replicate the observation that restricted selenium/fatty acids caused either pancreatic lesions or CF, it was determined that although CF patients have impaired absorption of fatty acids they are not deficient in selenium and it was rapidly established that selenium played no role whatsoever in the pathology of the disease. The last nail was driven into the selenium deficiency coffin in 1989, when Kerem et al published the identity of the defective gene associated with CF.

                  • Ron Roy

                    I will post info regarding Wallach and selenium later but I thought this might open your eyes. Read what the University of Maryland Medical Center recommends as treatment for cystic fibrosis: http://umm.edu/health/medical/altmed/condition/cystic-fibrosis

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    You really don’t get it. You are confusing the cause and possible alleviation.

                  • David

                    I just read your university of maryland link where it clearly states as we know that this is a recessive GENETIC disease. At the bottom it starts going into CAM with homeopathy etc…was selenium mentioned somewhere in there…because i couldn’t find it. I assume somewhere among all the vitamins and herbs, selenium was mentioned. Is this supposed to support your theory that selenium can cure cystic fibrosis?

                  • David

                    Ok … i just found it, selenium under the multivitamin heading? so seriously, how does this suggest in any way that Wallach was right? How did this not open your eyes, when this says quite clearly that this is a genetic disease for which there is No KNOWN prevention. That really the only effective treatment will be gene therapy. Have you even heard of gene therapy since you seem to be a transplant from 40 years back in time.
                    This just exemplifies your cherry picking of information, in that you can read that whole statement and somehow devise that this is support for Wallachs theory????

                  • Ron Roy

                    I just posted this to show that natural ( non pharmaceutical ) medicine is accepted by many main steam medical organizations.

                  • JGC

                    Your link indicates they recommend bronchodilators , mucolytics, decongestants, digestive enzymes, antibiotics, nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs, corticosteroids, pancreatic enzymes, enemas, and where necessary respiratory and gastrointestinal surgery.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Why did you avoid these recommendations in the same article? Too Natural?

                    Eat more foods that decrease mucous production, including garlic,
                    onions, watercress, horseradish, mustard, parsley, celery, rose hips
                    tea, pickles, lemon, and anti-inflammatory oils (nuts, seeds, and
                    cold-water fish).
                    Eat more foods containing digestive enzymes, such as papaya and pineapple.
                    Avoid refined foods, such as white breads, pastas, and sugar.
                    Eat fewer red meats and more lean meats, cold-water fish, tofu (soy, if no allergy), or beans for protein.
                    Use healthy oils, such as coconut oil.
                    Reduce
                    or eliminate trans fatty acids, found in commercially-baked goods, such
                    as cookies, crackers, cakes, French fries, onion rings, donuts,
                    processed foods, and margarine.

                  • JGC

                    No, but instead because those recommendations weren’t offered as a means to prevent cystic fibrosis: they were instead offered as nutritional tips that might help reduce the severity of symptoms of CF.

                    May I conclude that because you’ve offered this link to support your position regarding cystic fibrosis, you believe the information it presents is accurate?

                    If so, I’ll point you to the text found under the heading “What Causes IT?” (bold for emphasis)

                    “CF is caused by a defective gene that tells the body to produce abnormally thick and sticky fluid, called mucus.”

                  • Ron Roy

                    “CF is caused by a defective gene. No shit Sherlock. Now tell me by what mechanism did that gene become defective?

                  • JGC

                    There is no single mechanism, Ron: about 2000 different mutations of the CTFR gene have been associated with cystic fibrosis.

                  • JGC

                    Your link indicates they recommend bronchodilators , mucolytics, decongestants, digestive enzymes, antibiotics, nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs, corticosteroids, pancreatic enzymes, enemas, and where necessary respiratory and gastrointestinal surgery.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Wallach caused the offspring of those monkeys to have CF by restricting selenium from the mothers diet. What more proof do you need?

                  • Mike Stevens

                    Ron, can you provide a link or a PMID number to Wallach’s publication on this research, so I can see it for myself?

                  • JGC

                    I would need credible proof that Wallach actually did cause the offspring of monkeys to develop actual CF by restricting selenium from their mother’s diets during pregnancy. That isn’t what he reported doing in the late 1960’s, after all: only that he observed pancreatic lesions similar to those found in CF patients in monkeys whose mothers he claimed were deficient in selenium and fatty acids.

                  • Ron Roy

                    You’re wrong and you know it. Wallace was fired for proving that a selenium deficiency in the mother could cause cystic fibrosis in the offspring.

                  • JGC

                    I’m neither wrong, nor do I know that I’m wrong. Wallace can not have been fired for proving maternal selenium deficiency causes CF in their offspring because he did nothing of the sort.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Wrong.

                  • JGC

                    I would need credible proof that Wallach actually did cause the offspring of monkeys to develop actual CF by restricting selenium from their mother’s diets during pregnancy. That isn’t what he reported doing in the late 1960’s, after all: only that he observed pancreatic lesions similar to those found in CF patients in monkeys whose mothers he claimed were deficient in selenium and fatty acids.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Wallach caused the offspring of those monkeys to have CF by restricting selenium from the mothers diet. What more proof do you need?

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Apparently you did not even understand the history of the CF research in question. Wallach discovered coincidentially a CF rhesus monkey, and the research lab concluded correctly that this could be used to establish an animal model vie breeding the parents of this monkey. This is where Wallach drew the wrong conclusions. He did withdraw Se and concluded that Se was the reason when in fact the genetic mutation in this population was the reason. A classic example of confounding factors.

                  • Ron Roy

                    You’re the one who pretends not to understand and intentionally twists the facts. Now follow me closely….. He eliminated selenium from the diet of the mothers, in order to prove his point, and the offspring were born with cystic fibrosis because the mothers were deficient in that mineral. There did you understand that or should I have spoken more s l ow l y.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Let me explain something to you, Ronnyboy. Wallach has been disproven. He was already disproven when he conducted the Selenium experiments because Kershan disease is niot assiciated with Cystic Fibrosis. Period.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Wrong.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Where are your data ? On the table or be called an idiot.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Where are your data ? On the table or be called an idiot.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Wrong.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Mother no selenium babies born with cystic fibrosis. Gee what more proof do you need?

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Ronnyboy, slowly explained for you: Selenium depletion: NO data. Absolutely none. ZILCH. No association with Kershan disease. Nada, Zilch. CRTF mutation: plenty of data. CF is a genetically caused disease. Got it ?

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Ronnyboy, slowly explained for you: Selenium depletion: NO data. Absolutely none. ZILCH. No association with Kershan disease. Nada, Zilch. CRTF mutation: plenty of data. CF is a genetically caused disease. Got it ?

                  • Ron Roy

                    Mother no selenium babies born with cystic fibrosis. Gee what more proof do you need?

                  • AutismDadd

                    A coincidence…that’s what good little scientists say

                  • David

                    but Wallach and family will keep claiming such so that they can continue to print money selling mineral supplements.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Ronnyboy, citing a book does not fly here. Where are the data ?

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Ronnyboy, citing a book does not fly here. Where are the data ?

                  • Boris Ogon

                    CF patients with excellent results

                    There are certain advantages to RR’s inability to successfully copy and paste, I suppose. This fragment horks up exactly three G—le results. Yay, huldaclarkzappers-dot-com!

                  • Boris Ogon

                    See wasn’t that easy?

                    Not as easy as looking up PMID 3820518, going to the publisher’s site, and examining the Scopus links. Do check back after following these straightforward instructions.

                  • Boris Ogon

                    See wasn’t that easy?

                    Not as easy as looking up PMID 3820518, going to the publisher’s site, and examining the Scopus links. Do check back after following these straightforward instructions.

                  • David

                    I’m an opthalmologist who works with prisms Ron. Do you want to tell me about what you think prisms can do

                  • toejam

                    He thinks they places of confinement.

                  • Ron Roy

                    I’ll have Royal explain it to you. Hey Royal……. Oh he says just google his name and the explanation will be there. Thanks for asking though.

                  • http://www.pseudolaw.com Ken S.

                    No matter how many prisms you use, they don’t make photons any smaller. Imagine trying to punch a 2 cm hole with a 3 cm punch. You can use any system of levers or ramps or machines, but you will never be able to fit a 3 cm punch through a 2 cm hole.

                    Similarly, you will never be able to bounce a 700 nm wave off of an 80 nm virus. Visible light wavelengths (i.e., the range of optical microscopes) begin at around 300 nm. Viruses are seldom bigger than 300 nm, and usually much smaller. In other words, visible light is too big to fit onto a virus. Objects smaller than 300 nm literally have no visible appearance to magnify.

                  • hicusdicus

                    Prisims is where they put people who do bad things.

                  • joe

                    I have just released my bladder, man you make my day.

                  • toejam

                    I have to take pills to git mine to release . It always does it in a crowd with no where to go. I need a motorman’s friend. But I don’t know any motormen or their friends.

                  • toejam

                    I have to take pills to git mine to release . It always does it in a crowd with no where to go. I need a motorman’s friend. But I don’t know any motormen or their friends.

                  • Ron Roy

                    I’ve asked this before but you keep evading my question. Explain to me how Gaston Naessens was able to make a light microscope powerful enough to see viruses. His lab in Canada is open to any scientist that want’s to see it.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Oh. The next quack. I strongly recommend that you study the wave-matter nature of light, abbe’s principle, the light sources both Rife and Naessens use and how that fits into optics. Oh, I forgot, you can’t even spell “prism”.

                    BTW, “prisim” is not a typo. You know why ? “i” is neither adjacent to “s” nor to “m” and your keyboard doesn’t malfunction either because your writing does not show any other similar mistakes It is the same inability to spell like in miss education.

                  • AutismDadd

                    “My employer am I” Can’t even talk English. Not only a Deutsche bag, but an idiot too

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    I speak English, German and Spanish. Kann Er eine Fremsprache ? Nein ? Un americano monolingual mas.

                  • AutismDadd

                    We should have locked your population in camps after we kicked you in WW2

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Let me explain something to you: Your entire culture, including your language bears the stamp: Made in Europe.

                  • AutismDadd

                    That’s an insult

                  • David

                    Better be careful what you say…the nazis also put the mentally retarded in concentration camps…you would definitely qualify

                  • Ron Roy

                    No he wouldn’t but you on the other hand would probably be recruited to work with Josef Mengele.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Aren’t you the classy DOCTOR. Now wonder our children suffer

                  • AutismDadd

                    So you can talk trash in 3 languages…big whoop

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    well, you don’t even grasp the fine points of your own language.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Tell us what the fine points are.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    BTW, “My employer am I” is perfectly correct English, because English allows for the reverse of subject and object. It is advanced English so you might not know it. “Can’t even talk English” is wrong. In written context it must be “speak” and not “talk” because talking refers to spoken English only. It seems that the one who is not able to speak (note !!!) English is YOU.

                  • AutismDadd

                    All that blah blah to deny fault. Must be a pediatrician who lectures parents when they ask about vaccine safety.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    In anderen Worten, er spricht keine Fremdsprache. Er ist entlassen.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Are you just following orders General?

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Übrigens, die Umstellung von Subjekt – Verb – Objekt auf Objekt – Verb – Subjekt ist in Englisch grammatikalisch korrekt so wie in jeder germanischen Sprache.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Are you Goose Stepping Mr Hilter?

                  • joe

                    Had some spare time today ( still in Italy ) to tell you something,Ron and AutismDadd do have a problem with English,I tried to tell them,but they would not believe me,I am pleased to see you shooting them down,keep up the good work.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    BTW, it is a shame you apparently do not even master your own mothertongue.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Yea a real shame as you butcher it saying My employer am I

                  • David

                    “can’t even speak english” not talk english. Is it your second language too?

                  • AutismDadd

                    If you have a point it must have been flushed with the other crap you posted.

                  • hicusdicus

                    Have you ever had an employer??? Okay I will count being a honey wagon driver. Why were you let go? I know you kept smelling a rat.

                  • Ron Roy

                    I worked for myself most of my life and because of that I retired very early in life giving me all the time I want to hound idiots like yourself and all the other Gorskiits.

                  • hicusdicus

                    Did you ever contimplate going on strike or hitting your boss with a 2by 4?

                  • Ron Roy

                    I could go on strike anytime I wanted ( it was nice having people work for me ). So no I was never tempted to hit myself with a 2×4.

                  • toejam

                    You worked for yourself that must have been boring.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Of yes I always find making money boring. NOT An thanks to that boring occupation I was able to retire at 47 and live very comfortably. Yeah making money really sucked ( sarcasm ). In case you didn’t notice.

                  • Sheplorable?✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ
                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Quote from a Rife supporter website: “The next step was humans. The result? Here is Rife’s report: “The first clinical work on cancer was completed under the supervision of Milbank Johnson, M.D., which was setup under a special medical research committee of the University of Southern California. Sixteen cases were treated at the clinic for manv tvpes of malignancy. After three months, fourteen of these so-called hopeless cases were signed off as clinically cured by a staff of medical doctors and Alvin G. Foord, M. D., pathologist for the group.”

                    Coincidentially the reports are publicly available here: http://rifevideos.com/dr_robert_p_staffords_patient_report_on_dr_rifes_electromagnetic_field_therapy.html

                    Case 1: died authopsy: Carcinoma of left breast with metastasis locally. Status post-irradiation.
                    Case 2: died, authopsy: Carcinoma of the uterus (clinical)
                    Case 3: not clear, but metastases remained
                    Case 4: Then there was gradual recurrence and extension of the lesions (slides available).
                    Case 5: After several weeks of encouraging progress at the metastatic sites, there was again resumption of unfavorable progress. (slides available).
                    Case 6: There was gradual deterioration; and eventually, intractable cardiac decompensation caused his death.
                    Case 7: unclear, death to other reasons
                    Case 8: . Then deterioration progressed with increasing weakness and death.
                    Case 9: However, no signs of improvement (objective) followed EFT.
                    Case 10: EFT failed to affect patient either beneficially or adversely.
                    Case 11: After EFT, both the cough and hemoptysis were decreased during the two weeks before his death. [he still was not cured]
                    Case 12 to 16: EFT was given without benefit.

                    In other words, this (Quote: ” After three months, fourteen of these so-called hopeless cases were signed off as clinically cured by a staff of medical doctors and Alvin G. Foord, M. D., pathologist for the group.”) is a lie.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Nice try. All these people died 20 or more years after they were cured and Rife even told them if they kept living / eating like they did before their cancer would come back because it was their lifestyle that cause it to begin with. The truth about Rife:https://www.quantumbalancing.com/rife-historyif.htm

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Quote: “All these people died 20 or more years after they were cured”. That is a lie. Quote Case 1: “She died on her 94th hospital day.” That is three months. Quote Case 3: “The first EFT was given on 2/22/58; the patient noted an immediate decrease in the tight feeling in the left axilla and in the upper anterior chest. Her coughing spells reduced to once daily and were less severe after the second EFT. She was more comfortable henceforth, but her weakness progressed and syspnea increased. She expired on 3/12/58.” I.o.W. survival less than a month. Ron Roy, Liar, liar pants on fire !

                  • Ron Roy

                    She didn’t die of cancer.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Yeah, and nobody dies of car accidents, but of injuries. This is one of the most pathetic defenses I have ever seen.

                  • http://www.pseudolaw.com Ken S.

                    The same way nobody has ever died of AIDS, just diseases that AIDS allows to flourish?

                  • hicusdicus

                    Do you know what the leading cause of death is??

                  • Ron Roy

                    The MEDICAL MAFIA. I was going to say doctors but I wanted to be politically correct and include the whole syndicate.

                  • hicusdicus

                    Getting born, but if you were found under a rock that would not apply.

                  • Boris Ogon

                    She didn’t die of cancer.

                    Unless you can define your terms, nobody does.

                  • joe

                    Thomas ,take no notice of Ron,he has been caught out many many times,as for integrity—he has NONE.

                  • Ron Roy

                    No not a lie you’re the one lying.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Really ? First you claim they all lived happily ever after and when it turns out that none of them did you claim they didn’t die of cancer. How do you call that ? I call it denial at best, lying at worst.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Whatever they died of it was OVER twenty years later and if you remember they were TERMINALLY ill at the time they wee treated. And Rife warned them if they continued to live the way they had their cancer could come back. You’re tho one lying you piece of manure.

                  • David

                    Rob Roy it is like you were an anti vaxxes/conspiracy theorist that has been asleep for the last 25 years. Science has progressed so far and you are quoting all these disgraced scientists from 25 years ago. Arguments that have been dead for 25 years

                  • Ron Roy

                    ”Arguments that have been dead for 25 years.” Only in your dreams.

                  • David

                    Even your own antvax movement will distance themselves from you. You actually do more for the pro vaccine cause. Parents who are sitting on the fence will see that this guy believes that hiv does not cause AIDS, that the cure for ALL cancers exist but is being suppressed by the “medical mafia”. They will realize how irrational the people in the anti vax camp are …

                  • David

                    Even your own antvax movement will distance themselves from you. You actually do more for the pro vaccine cause. Parents who are sitting on the fence will see that this guy believes that hiv does not cause AIDS, that the cure for ALL cancers exist but is being suppressed by the “medical mafia”. They will realize how irrational the people in the anti vax camp are …

                  • hicusdicus

                    You have been punked. Now back to the basement for you.

                  • David

                    How old are you Ron that you still hang on to disgraced theories from
                    Scientists fourty years ago. We now easily have the ability to prove their theories are wrong. You are ignoring all the technological advances such as electron micrographs, genome testing, nanotechnology, immunohistochemistery advances, other advanced imaging techniques (MRI, PET, optical coherence) and on and on. Why would you trust rife imaging technique when we really can see these things now? It all seems odd to me

                  • Ron Roy

                    With all this technology more people die from medical mistakes and intervention every year: in 1998 98,000 in 2010 180,000 and according to the Joulnal of Patient Safety in 2014 it was in between 210,000 and 440,000 and this was only in the US. I think the old ways were safer. How old are you Ron that you still hang on to disgraced theories from
                    Scientists fourty years ago.You misspelled forty T Mohr like to point out that I’m wrong because I make spelling mistakes sooooo. Gee there must have been many disgraced theories. And in another 40 years will they say what they’re doing today was also wrong?

                  • David

                    for the record….i am a canadian…and we often spell 40 …fourty.
                    but in fact, for once I will say you are right, it is a mistake that canadians often make.

                  • David

                    by the way joulnal is journal. if you going to be picky

                  • David

                    and yes, you are right, in another 40 years, we will consider many of todays treatments as barbaric. That is why it is important in science and medicine that theories and treatments continue to evolve as new techniques and treatments are discovered. Even your dead scientists you are so impressed with, would probably admit that their theories were wrong, now that we have the benefit of new technology to investigate there fields of study. Ie pleomorphism

                  • hicusdicus

                    I doubt you even know 5 people who would tell you anything.

                  • hicusdicus

                    I bet you don’t even know the leading cause of death.

                • Jonathan Graham

                  Time has no bearing on truth

                  Statement: Julius Caesar is alive.

                  According to Ron Roy that statement is true regardless of the year.

                  all diseases would have been easily cured.

                  Please. You don’t believe that any more than anyone else.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Prove Rife was wrong. CITATIONS PLEASE.

                  • Jonathan Graham

                    Provide a specific, falsifiable statement of Rife and I’ll be happy to oblige. Not a big cut and paste job Ron.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Ron, that is not the way medical science works. If you have a new treatemtn, you have to demonstrate the benefit of the treatment. There is not one single scientific paper regarding Rife’s theories. As for your conspiracy theory, this is the arrogance many US Americans display. He could have published in any European Journal. You will be surprised, but a lot of European Journals give a F* what the AMA says. Aside that, if the devices and microscopes would have worked, he could have sold that to any company because a pharmaceutical company wants to make money and not suppress something because the president of the AMA says so.

                    And now you better stop spreading nonsense before you shoot yourself into your second knee.

                  • Ron Roy

                    ”that is not the way medical science works” Another familiar sounding sound bite. Who are you ?

                    Not a single medical paper? Gee I wonder why? Any idiot that did a little research on Rife would know why. You choose to be blind. As far as my knees I would love to prove to you that they’re great working order. Mind your mouth OLD man. As for Rife ( This is not for you but for those who have an open mind):
                    Royal Raymond Rife – 1888 – 1971
                    Rife Chronology
                    This is the historical record of Rife’s discovery and where it is
                    today.
                    MAY 16, 1888 – Royal Raymond Rife
                    is born in Elkhorn, Nebraska
                    1910-1920 – Settles in San Diego,
                    California
                    1920-1929 – Conducts research in
                    microscopes, microbiology and “energy medicine.”
                    NOVEMBER 3, 1929 – Rife’s
                    stunning accomplishments are first brought public in an
                    article in the San Diego Union paper. Readers learn that,
                    “Rife… is evolving a new
                    method that will do away with chemicals… The
                    possibilities of this process once it is perfected, he
                    believes, are boundless. Medical men… may in this one
                    step find an end to much of human suffering. This is Rife’s
                    great aim.”
                    JUNE 1931 – The nationally
                    distributed magazine Popular Science describes Rife’s
                    accomplishments and the new world he has opened to the
                    American people.
                    In the article doctors and lab
                    workers report,
                    “We were in the
                    laboratory of R.R. Rife at San Diego, Calif. He is a
                    pioneer in the art of making motion pictures of the
                    microscopically small. Now doctors may sit and watch
                    bacteria in their native surroundings on a motion
                    picture screen. Rife has devised a magnetic compass
                    so delicate that it can be used to study the
                    electricity and magnetism in living germs. He
                    suggests that if the electrical make-up of certain
                    dangerous germs is learned, it may someday be
                    possible to destroy them in the human body by
                    applying small doses of electricity.”
                    NOVEMBER 1931 – Dr. Milbank
                    Johnson, professor of medicine at the University of
                    Southern California in Los Angeles, travels to San Diego to
                    “check out” this genius Royal R. Rife. Dr. Johnson is
                    accompanied by three other prominent Los Angeles area
                    doctors. They are astounded by what they find. They
                    immediately send a Western Union telegram to Dr. Arthur
                    Kendall of Northwestern University in Chicago, Illinois,
                    one of the leading bacteriologists in America. He wires back
                    that he will be on a train heading to the American West
                    Coast within a day or so!
                    MID-NOVEMBER 1931 – The historic
                    “doctor’s gathering” occurs in Pasadena, California.
                    Forty-four of the nation’s most respected medical
                    authorities honor Rife with a banquet billed as “The End to
                    All Diseases.”
                    NOVEMBER 22, 1931 – The Los
                    Angeles Times reports,
                    “Scientific discoveries of
                    the greatest magnitude… were described Friday evening
                    to members of the medical profession, bacteriologists
                    and pathologists at a dinner given by Dr. Milbank
                    Johnson in honor of Dr. Rife and Dr. A.I. Kendall.”
                    DECEMBER 1931 – The official
                    journal of the state medical associations of California,
                    Nevada and Utah report on the discoveries and historic
                    significance of Rife’s and Kendall’s breakthrough project
                    JULY 5-7, 1932 – Rife, Kendall
                    and Dr. Edward C. Rosenow of the Mayo Clinic, the
                    most prestigious research and treatment hospital in America,
                    meet in Chicago to verify the results of the Pasadena,
                    California experiments. The successful results are soon
                    reported in a staff paper circulated within the Mayo Clinic
                    and then in Science magazine (August 26, 1932), the
                    most prestigious scientific journal in America.
                    NOVEMBER 1931 – Rife isolates in
                    his remarkable microscope a virus-size, dwarf bacteria that
                    is the cause of many, if not all, cancers.
                    SUMMER OF 1934 – Dr. Milbank
                    Johnson of the University of Southern California organizes a
                    clinical trial consisting of 16 persons with cancer
                    diagnosed as “terminal.” The clinic is located in La Jolla,
                    California, just north of San Diego. Within a few months
                    time, all 16 patients are diagnosed as “cured.”
                    1935-1938 – Clinics are opened in
                    San Diego, Los Angeles and Pasadena, California. Phenomenal
                    results are reported. A Special Medical Research
                    Committee is organized at the University of Southern
                    California in Los Angeles to oversee and manage Rife’s “energy medicine” research and clinical success
                    with a
                    variety of disease conditions, not just cancer.
                    MAY 6, 1938 AND MAY 11, 1938
                    – The San Diego Evening Tribune reports that Rife’s “energy
                    medicine” has successfully destroyed the microbes associated
                    with cancer and other diseases.
                    The newspaper articles are
                    cautious but optimistic, but the original article declares,
                    “The discovery promised
                    fulfillment of man’s age-old hope for a specific
                    destroyer of all his infectious diseases…
                    Organisms from tuberculosis, cancer… Typhoid…
                    Were among many which the scientist reported are
                    killed by the waves… Rife commented, ‘…we can
                    say that these waves or the ray has the power of
                    devitalizing disease organisms.'”
                    1938-1939 – The San Diego
                    Medical Society reacts furiously to the newspaper
                    article describing Rife’s profound discoveries. Doctors
                    using Rife’s “energy instruments” are visited and informed
                    to stop healing their patients with Rife’s method or face
                    loss of the medical licenses and jail.
                    MARCH 1939 – The leading
                    laboratory for electronic or energy medicine in America,
                    located in New Jersey across the river from New York City,
                    is “mysteriously” destroyed by fire at 3 A.M. while its
                    director is in San Diego visiting Rife.
                    MAY-JUNE 1939 – An electronics
                    engineer who assisted Rife during a critical phase of Rife’s
                    research sells out to the American Medical Association.
                    The engineer initiates a courtroom battle for control of the
                    new healing method. Rife is stopped just before leaving for
                    England where scientists and doctors are prepared to honor
                    him and his new healing technology, followed by worldwide
                    distribution of his microscopes and energy instruments.
                    JUNE 1939 – Rife’s associates
                    beat back the engineer’s attempt to grab the Rife
                    discoveries on behalf of the American Medical Association.
                    However, Rife has begun to drink during the severe pressure
                    of the trial. He and his associates are virtually bankrupt
                    when the trial is over.
                    SEPTEMBER 1939 – World War II
                    erupts when Nazi Germany invades Poland. The world is
                    plunged into war until 1945.
                    1940 – Arthur Yale, M.D.
                    reports at the California State Homeopathic Medical Society
                    that he has achieved stunning cures of terminal cancer
                    patients using Rife’s “energy instruments” and thus
                    destroying the microbe associated with cancer.
                    1944 – Dr. Milbank Johnson,
                    head of the Special Medical Research Committee of the
                    University of Southern California, mysteriously dies.
                    Shortly thereafter, all the files relating to Rife “vanish.”
                    1945-1950 – Rife hits hard
                    financial times as he is “locked out” of medical-scientific
                    worlds previously open to him.
                    1950-1960 – Rife begins to
                    develop anew his “energy instruments” with new associates.
                    These are primarily with engineering backgrounds however. No
                    men with scientific or medical credentials dare to assist
                    Rife. However, over 90 instruments are distributed for
                    research and self experimentation.
                    1960 – Medical authorities invade Rife’s lab. Energy instruments are smashed and confiscated.
                    Rife goes into hiding in Mexico while his associates are put
                    on trial. Medical documentation is not allowed to be
                    introduced at their trial. Rife’s associates are sentenced
                    to long jail terms.
                    AUGUST 1971 – Rife dies in San
                    Diego, California at the age of 83.
                    APRIL 1987 –

                    The
                    Cancer Cure That Worked – The Rife Report is
                    published. It sparks an interest in Rife’s long-suppressed
                    inventions, discoveries and “energy medicine” healing
                    therapy.
                    1990-2000 – A stunning grassroots
                    movement centered on Rife’s lost science erupts across
                    America and then spreads into other countries. Reports of
                    amazing cancer cures based on Rife-related therapy begins
                    circulating. Rife becomes a focus of serious scientific,
                    medical and engineering exchanges on the world wide web as
                    the internet catalyzes an information-communication
                    revolution.
                    2000-2001 – Elected members of
                    Congress begin asking hard questions of FDA and NCI
                    officials regarding Rife and other alternative cancer
                    therapies.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Who I am ? I scientist in cancer research with several publications in top journals. Who are you ? How much research did you actually do ?

                    Contrary to you I understand how science works and why Rife’s ideas do NOT work. They – like homeopathy – violate some of sciences most fundamental principles.

                    Aside that I am an Austrian. That means an elected member of the US Congress is just another politician, nothing more. Your statement that elected members of the congress investigate re Rife and probably believe that proves that one should not let people decide on matters they have no idea whatsoever about.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Who I am ? I scientist in cancer research with several publications in top journals.Cite one I’m curious.

                  • David

                    Why don’t you use your brain and search pubmed under his name. You know the thing that is run by the medical mafia You better hurry because the lizard men are calling–are they your hidden source?

                  • joe

                    You crack me up.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Use a brain ? Which brain ?

                  • hicusdicus

                    The second brain. The one that controls the intestinal track. The one the little brown choo choo train runs on.

                  • hicusdicus

                    The second brain. The one that controls the intestinal track. The one the little brown choo choo train runs on.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Don’t you know what a brain is?

                  • Ron Roy

                    You better hurry because the lizard men are calling? You’ve been watching to much science fiction AGAIN! You’ll never learn now go stand in the corner.

                  • Ron Roy

                    You better hurry because the lizard men are calling? You’ve been watching to much science fiction AGAIN! You’ll never learn now go stand in the corner.

                  • hicusdicus

                    He keeps his hidden source where the sun never shines.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    If you would have any idea about science, you would have looked me up already. Pubmed, Moht T[AU] Vienna[AD]

                  • Ron Roy

                    I copied and pasted on the search bar on Pubmed and and one paper showed up but your name wasn’t there. I did a general search on you name but all I got was:

                    Dr Thomas Mohr. Winner of the Lars Sullivan Spinalis Prize 1996. Still no papers.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Mohr+T%5BAU%5D+Vienna%5BAD%5D

                    which proves you are unable to notice and correct a typo.

                    So who are you in the scientific world ?

                  • Ron Roy

                    It wasn’t a typo. You copied and pasted a link.

                  • David

                    I had. I problem searching for his papers and many came up. It shows that you never do any independent thinking of research yourself as you obviously do not know how.

                  • Ron Roy

                    I copied and pasted the link he posted. He later corrected himself and I did find he co-authored some papers but I found it curious that his name was in bold where the others were not?

                  • David

                    Maybe his name was in bold because he is the one you searched for…you really have never even tried to research things yourself.

                  • Ron Roy

                    First time that EVER happened? I smell a rat.

                  • hicusdicus

                    Go brush your teeth and the smell will dissipate.

                  • Ron Roy

                    If you stopped trying to get so close to me you wouldn’t think it was my teeth. I’m not that way I like women. I thought it was your BO.

                  • hicusdicus

                    If you would shave I could see the difference, maybe.

                  • Ron Roy

                    That isn’t me, I’m clean shaven, you’re looking in a mirror again. It’s hard for you to become self aware isn’t it?

                  • Jonathan Graham

                    Ron, in pubmed and other search engines the search term you type in is highlighted in some way. e.g. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/?term=drosophila

                    Oh hey DROSOPHILA is bolded….do you still smell a rat or have your realized just how much you’ve told us about how you have never used this search engine.

                  • Jonathan Graham

                    Ron, in pubmed and other search engines the search term you type in is highlighted in some way. e.g. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/?term=drosophila

                    Oh hey DROSOPHILA is bolded….do you still smell a rat or have your realized just how much you’ve told us about how you have never used this search engine.

                  • David Wright

                    Up vote this with a BIG SMILE!!!

                  • http://perfectlycrazydragon.tumblr.com/ One other person is typing.

                    Ron, you’ve done research so you must appear in pubmed yourself. Surely you know how it works by now?

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    If you search for an author in pubmed the name is *always* bold. BTW, it is the same in Google. Re co-authoring some papers: That is more than you ever will achieve. Not only unable to correct a typo, but also not able to research properly.

                  • hicusdicus

                    My wife is a scientist and her dad was a rocket scientist. I am an ignorant oaf But I still can sift out nonsense. Why are you, a man of learning even commenting to this dingle berry?

                  • Ron Roy

                    OMG and she married you? Love IS blind.

                  • hicusdicus

                    Don’t tell her that. I would have get a job.

                  • AutismDadd

                    What’s that “prize” for?

                  • Ron Roy

                    I can’t seem to find any information on this. I suspect whoever Tommy works for made up a false ID for him.

                  • AutismDadd

                    How bout Shill of the Year?

                  • AutismDadd

                    Mohr = sock puppet account for ORAC

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    If you would have any idea about science, you would have looked me up already. Pubmed, Moht T[AU] Vienna[AD]

                  • David

                    Just out of curiosity Ron Roy. How old is the earth? Does evolution exist?

                  • Ron Roy

                    How old is the earth? Well I’ll tell you if you promise not to tell your teacher that I gave you the answer. It’s roughly 4.5 billion years old. Then of course if it’s your Sunday school teacher the answer would be 6 thousand years old. Does evolution exist well of course Then again if it’s your Sunday school teacher that’s asking the answer is no. Hope I helped.

                  • Marcel

                    Headlines rife with amazing claims are one thing; reproducible, third-party scientific studies to substantiate them are another.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Are you talking about the cancer cures used by Dr Farid Fata who is now serving 45 years in jail for treating 553 patients for cancer who never had it. And the investigations at the Crittenton Hospital Cancer Center are ongoing. Now if one oncologist was caught how many others haven’t yet been caught. There are dozens of non- toxic cancers cure that are more effective than chemotherapy. Gaston Naessens ( in Canada ) has a compound he calls 714x that is much more effective at curing brain cancers than chemo. Chemo cure rate 1 or 2 % 714x cure rate 50 %. Now who’s gullible. The general public is becoming aware that people like yourself are scanning the internet desperately trying to give alternative modalities a bad name.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Ronnyboy, Fata is an insurance fraud. If one would apply the measures onto naturopathic oncologists, 75% of them would be in jail. Aside that you are not in the position to judge. You yourself admitted lacking the eductation to be able to do so.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Nice try Tommy. Fata was convicted on insurance fraud because he billed insurance companies for CANCER treatments his patients didn’t need. THEY DIDN’T HAVE CANCER. And the investigations are ongoing.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Well, Ronny, let me lecture you again. Your flock bills patients with cancer for treatments that do not work. That is way worse.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Your flock treats people for cancers they never had.

                  • Ron Roy

                    You’ve got your head stuck up your a _ _ again so you can’t see clearly. A lot of those CURES ARE FREE.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Yeah, they are free. Free of effect as has been demonstrated by the 16 cancer cases.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Still bothered by that tunnel vision I see.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Ronnyboy, since you have visions and seem to believe everything you stumble over, I have property to sell in New York. 19th century, very well maintained, fabulous view, located right above the East River. Interested ?

                  • Jonathan Graham

                    A lot of those CURES ARE FREE

                    Your beloved 714x is not. Not only that but because it is not an approved drug it is not going to be covered under our medical system and very, very, very likely not covered under ANY private plan (unless you have an HSA but possibly not even then as this is such a ridiculously special case) . It’s $800 a treatment.

                    You have to have very few scruples to endorse taking dying peoples money this way.

                  • Ron Roy

                    $800.00 is cheap when it comes to saving one life. If it didn’t work why are Canadian doctors prescribing it? Also if it didn’t work the popularity of the treatment would have died a long time ago. And there always juicing, Jay Kordish( the juice man )cured himself of an incurable cancer by juicing when he was in his early twenties. How about baking soda now that’s very expensive. The cost of just the side effects from chemo ( which doesn’t work anyway ) is in between $2000.00 and $4000.00. The cost of chemo itself can go as high as over $100,000.00 now that’s pure robbery.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Ronnyboy, you don’t even know your own facts. 714X costs on average USD400 a month, six months (= 2400.–) with an injection volume of roughly 100mL in total (0.5mL per day). I.o.W. the costs per mL are roughly USD24.

                    This is already among the higher priced anti cancer drugs (5-FU for instance is much cheaper).

                    But lets look at a better figure, the profit margin. Given the fact that 714X consists of 94% water and camphor plus some salts it is obvious that one can produce roughly 8L 714X from 0.5kg camphor. At USD24 per mL this is sold at USD 192.000.–. I guess the raw materials are roughly USD100. Even if we set fabrication costs at USD900 (which is wildly exaggerated) we still have a profit margin of 19100% (in words: nineteenthousand onehundred percent). Even if we take “only” a profit margin of 3000 percent (three thousend), we have production costs of roughly USD6400 per 8L bottle. There is no way that producing a 5% camphor solution costs that much, even under GMP conditions. CEOs of Big Pharma would not even envision such a margin in their wildest dreams. So far to your “cheap” alternative medicine. You really know not one single bit.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Compared to the cost of chemo drugs ( which don’t work anyway )I think the price is well worth it. And since when is a drug pusher like yourself against profits?

                  • Jonathan Graham

                    which don’t work anyway

                    The amount of data on survival rates for breast cancer with or without chemo is pretty easy to find. Why haven’t you bothered looking?

                  • David

                    Chemo doesn’t work? Here is an example of just how well it does work. And very inexpensive chemo at that
                    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/27376482/?i=4&from=testicular%20cancer%20chemotherapy
                    Why don’t you now give a reference for the efficacy of one of your natural cures

                  • Ron Roy

                    Gee 8 of my relatives who did take chemo died of cancer. I wonder if they were taking the wrong chemo?

                  • David

                    There have been 4000 prescriptions for this TOTAL in last 30 years. This is available info.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Citations please.

                  • David

                    that is a lot of cancer in one family. What kind of cancers and when did this occur.

                  • Ron Roy

                    3 brain cancers / 3 colon cancers / 1 breast cancer that spread through her whole body 1 where I don’t remember where the cancer started but it had spread through his whole body.

                  • David

                    that is a lot of cancer in one family. What kind of cancers and when did this occur.

                  • David

                    When did they take chemo. 30 years ago or last year. Things have changed exponentially

                  • Ron Roy

                    3 within the last 10 years.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    You really do not know how the Pharmaceutical industry (and especially your alternative medicine) works.

                    Given a profit of 19100%, one can assume that with 2400 USD per treatment USD 2399 are profit. With a cancer incidence of roughly 450 per 100.000, one gets 1.3 Mio new cases per year. Even if only 50% of these cases are treated with this wondercure, this results in a profit of 1.6 billion USD from this drug alone. This probably a bigger profit than the top ten anti cancer drugs together. Ronnyboy, let me lecture you: NO Pharmaceutical company would forgo such a block buster to bolster far less profitable drugs.

                  • Ron Roy

                    A little off topic but the general public would be interested:http://tesla3.com/free_websites/m_cancer_714X.html

                  • Jonathan Graham

                    $800.00 is cheap when it comes to saving one life

                    …except that the evidence points to it not working and since things that don’t cure you of cancer are free. It is infinitely expensive.

                    why are Canadian doctors prescribing it?

                    As far as I can tell 714x is barely being used at all in Canada by anyone. 30,000 SAP requests are processed each year[1] and 67% of them are for breast augmentation[2]. Leaving 9000 for every other approved drug, device or procedure for humans OR animals. Not to mention that you believe that doctors prescribe things that don’t work all the time. Why would 714x be any different?

                    Jay Kordish( the juice man )cured himself of an incurable cancer by juicing when he was in his early twenties.

                    As far as his website says it was Gerson Therapy which staved off cancer in his 20s’ – which is a) Not free, b) involved coffee enemas and c) is unlikely to be useful[3]

                    How about baking soda now that’s very expensive.

                    Yes. It costs you your life if you use it as a substitute for real therapy. As baking soda does absolutely nothing. The ideas your lot have about medicine are so charmingly naive. It’s like talking to a four-year old: Eat a tablespoon of baking soda and it will make your body more alkaline. ROFL.

                    [1]http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/dhp-mps/acces/drugs-drogues/sapg3_pasg3-eng.php
                    [2]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2585435/
                    [3]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20361473

                    It’s always interesting to talk to someone as unethical as yourself.

                  • David

                    Why are Canadian doctors prescribing it? I am in Canada. They are not prescribing it! Handful of prescriptions a year.

                  • Ron Roy

                    liar I have dozens of relatives in Canada and they say different.

                  • Jonathan Graham

                    Then you are being lied to or just lying yourself. At it’s height it was less than seven hundred users in Canada. Today you would be lucky to meet a doctor who even knows what it is.

                  • Boris Ogon

                    Fata was convicted on insurance fraud because he billed insurance companies for CANCER treatments his patients didn’t need. THEY DIDN’T HAVE CANCER.

                    No, you’re too stupid to understand the case and too lazy to try, aside from invoking the Power of the Caps Lock Key.

                    Take your time sorting it out. I’ll wait. Try to come up with a specific number. You won’t have to use your toes to count that high, unless that’s where you usually start in the first place.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Citations please.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Ronnyboy, Fata is an insurance fraud. If one would apply the measures onto naturopathic oncologists, 75% of them would be in jail. Aside that you are not in the position to judge. You yourself admitted lacking the eductation to be able to do so.

                  • hicusdicus

                    A 100 percent cancer cure is bullet to the brain.

                  • Ron Roy

                    I see you avoided commenting on one of your heroes Fata.

                  • hicusdicus

                    I don’t tsalk about fata people its not nice.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Ah stupid AND ignorant. Good combination

                  • hicusdicus

                    And you should know.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Yeah I know you are. Thanks for confirming that. You’re honest at least.

                  • JGC

                    “There are dozens of non- toxic cancers cure that are more effective than chemotherapy.”

                    Citations needed, Ron. Desparately.

                    “Gaston Naessens ( in Canada ) has a compound he calls 714x that is much more effective at curing brain cancers than chemo.”

                    There’s no evidence that 714x is effective at all, Ron. Naessens has published no studies on its safety or efficacy in humans at all, and the few studies published on it’s use in animals all show no beneficial effects.

                    “Now who’s gullible.”
                    That was a close one–the irony meter glowed red for a minute there, but the circuit breakers tripped in time to prevent its explosion.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Really then explain why the Canadian MEDICAL MAFIA lost twice when they took him to court? Could it be because of the hundreds of people , he cured,who went to court to support him? I have many relatives in Canada who will verify that.

                  • David

                    But the same doctor lost his licence to practice in France And that bogus treatment is health fraud in USA.
                    You leave out those parts

                  • Ron Roy

                    You lying sack of shit. Here’s the real story about Naessens:

                    The Story of Gaston Naessens Featured in Canada’s Saturday Night Magazine

                    In it’s December issue, Canada’s popular magazine, Saturday Night,
                    featured the trials and victories of eminent biologist Gaston Naessens.
                    The well-written 12 page article chronicled the life of Naessens from
                    the discovery of the somatid cycle (see Figure 1) to the development of
                    the formula 714-X, to the trials and persecution he faced and continues
                    to face. Below is a historical summation of the article:

                    Late 1940’s – From the work of individuals such as Béchamp and Emile
                    Doyen, Naessens began work on what would become the somatiscope. What
                    would later be termed dark-field microscopy (but not as sophisticated),
                    Naessens’ instrument allowed him to examine live blood at extreme
                    magnifications as well as with exceptionally high resolution. One
                    improvement with this instrument is its ability to see particle via
                    light refraction as opposed to traditional staining methods.

                    Mid 1950’s — Moved lab to Paris from Lyon, France. Opposition began
                    to mount from the traditional medical authorities due to innovative
                    theories and treatments, not to mention successes.

                    Early 1960’s — Naessens treated over 10,000 individuals afflicted
                    with various illnesses, many life-threatening, with extraordinary
                    results. On the other side, he was twice brought before the “bar”
                    (medical authorities). He was fined heavily and forced to close his
                    Paris lab. Much of his equipment was confiscated.

                    1962 — Naessens tried again to start his laboratory on the island of
                    Corsica, but Corsica was still France. Patients continued to seek him
                    out, as did the authorities.

                    1964 — Naessens pursued his work in Canada, leaving Corsica with only a few key components of his microscope.

                    Late 1960’s — He received a $25K grant from the National Research
                    Council as a consultant on microscopy. However, this was quickly revoked
                    due to his troubles with the French medical authorities of past years.

                    1971 — Gaston Naessens began again as a medical researcher. The head
                    of the MacDonald Stewart Foundation (organization which funded orthodox
                    cancer research for many years), David Stewart, agreed to finance
                    Naessens’ research personally and establish a laboratory for him on the
                    MacDonald Tobacco Company’s premises in Montreal. This infuriated the
                    orthodox oncologist on the research wing, and Naessens was forced to
                    move to a low-key spot in Rock Forest on the banks of the Magog River
                    near Sherbrooke, Canada.

                    1972 — Initial meeting regarding additional funding for research
                    relating to Naessen’s somatid theory and the formula 714-X went well. An
                    assistant professor of pathology, Daniel Perey, volunteered to head the
                    proposed investigation.

                    Perey visited Naessens laboratory and described it as nothing short of a
                    revelation. However, his excitement was not shared by all.
                    Co-investigators with Perey questioned the validity of the somatid
                    cycle, as this contradicted the definition of disease taught in medical
                    schools.

                    Late 1972 — Perey extolled Naessens’ contributions to the field
                    stating, “The scope and insight which Mr. Naessens has brought to this
                    area of research potentially stand to benefit mankind and may be a
                    source of pride for Canada!”

                    1974 — The final report of the MacDonald Stewart Foundation rejected
                    the somatid theory and Naessens’ notion of bolstering the immune system
                    to fight cancer. It now became apparent that Perey, who was to be the
                    chief investigator, had been assigned other duties that effectively used
                    up the time to run the Naessens study. This duty was passed on to a
                    husband-and-wife team of researchers who were not in the least
                    interested in truly researching the brilliant theories of Naessens.
                    Their focus was only on one large form of the somatid cycle that had
                    been described as a bacterium by German researchers who had isolated it
                    in the 1930’s. Overall, they dismissed the stages of the somatid cycle
                    as “artifacts” produced by mistakes during the process required to
                    observe them. Perey’s response in relation to the researchers was,
                    “microbiological dogmas are so entrenched in this couple’s minds that
                    they do not allow themselves the luxury of challenging them.”

                    Late 1974 — Dr. Raymond Keith Brown, a consultant for New York’s
                    Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center visited Rock Forest. Brown’s memo
                    to the center read,”What I have seen is a microscope that reveals with
                    spectacular clarity the motion and multiplicity of pleomorphic organisms
                    in the blood which are intimately associated with disease states. The
                    implications…are staggering….It is imperative that what its
                    inventor, a dedicated biological scientist, is doing, and can do, be
                    totally reviewed. I am convinced that he is an authentic genius and that
                    his achievements cut across and illumine some of the most pertinent
                    areas of medical science. If the review of his work is confirmed, this
                    man should be brought to New York and given unlimited support and
                    facilities to continue his research.”

                    Dr. Brown, along with an oncologist and microscopist eventually
                    drafted a second memorandum that reiterated the first. Unfortunately,
                    Naessens’ name appeared on the American Cancer Society’s “blacklist” and
                    the excitement subsided.

                    August, 1980 — Naessens supplied 714-X to Dr. Gaetan Jasmin, a
                    professor of pathology and medicine at the University of Montreal who
                    was willing to embark on the standard animal-control test; that is,
                    injecting the 714-X into cancerous and noncancerous rats. Dr. Jasmin
                    concluded the substance had no effect and the results were reported in
                    the MacDonald Stewart foundation literature in 1982. But, Jasmin refused
                    to follow Naessens specific protocol for the use of the substance. He
                    had injected the medicinal into the tumors themselves rather than into
                    the lymphatic system, a procedure he decided was impossible. Whereas
                    standard cancer treatments follow that procedure, Naessens’ truly
                    holistic approach was designed to treat the symptom via the cause — the
                    diametrical opposite of orthodox oncological approaches.

                    Throughout the 1970’s & 1980’s, doctors and patients alike
                    continued to flock to Rock Forest. The doctors learned about the new
                    biology, while the suffering patients were taught to inject themselves
                    with 714-X or referred to doctors who were willing to treat them.
                    Tremendous results continued as well.

                    December, 1984 — The police and officers of the Quebec Medical
                    Corporation raided Naessens’ house and laboratory, seizing vials of
                    714-X and some 150 medical files. Charges would be brought some 5 years
                    later.

                  • David

                    How am I lying? Is it not true that he lost his license in France and that this treatment is considered health fraud in the USA?
                    Please respond on what I lied about?

                  • Ron Roy

                    Only because he was a threat to the established MEDICAL MAFIA.

                  • JGC

                    Ron, you do realize that capitalizing “MEDICAL MAFIA” does nothing to make your completely unsupported claims more credible, don’t you?

                  • Ron Roy

                    I like to put emphasis where it’s due.

                  • JGC

                    Ron, you do realize that capitalizing “MEDICAL MAFIA” does nothing to make your completely unsupported claims more credible, don’t you?

                  • David

                    But the same doctor lost his licence to practice in France And that bogus treatment is health fraud in USA.
                    You leave out those parts

                  • Jonathan Graham

                    Really then explain why the Canadian MEDICAL MAFIA lost twice when they took him to court?

                    714x was considered unsafe by the Canadian Health Protection Board in 1989 however people were granted compassionate access to it under the Special Access Programme[1]. Here’s what Health Canada says about the SAP:

                    However, an SAP authorization is not equivalent to a market authorization, it does not constitute an assurance that a drug is safe, efficacious or of high quality.

                    Later an attempt was made to close this down because no evidence of clinical effectiveness had appeared. This went to the courts, the Judge ruled that existing patients should still have access pending a clinical trial but new patients would not[2]. There was a class action brought against Health Canada which was settled. In which the settlement included restoration to SAP[3].

                    So, did throngs of people claiming they were cured cause Heath Canada to lose in court? In a word: “no”.

                    It’s interesting that in fifteen years nobody has bothered to run a clinical trial for this compound. Perhaps it’s because it horribly failed even animal trials[4].

                    [1]https://issuu.com/joannepaterson5/docs/volume_69_number_2_spring_1999
                    [2]https://www.canlii.org/en/ca/fct/doc/2006/2006fc933/2006fc933.html?searchUrlHash=AAAAAQAPR2FzdG9uIE5hZXNzZW5zAAAAAAE&resultIndex=2
                    [3]http://lblavocats.ca/documents-recours/medicaments/termines/714x/an/Ordonnance_08_04_29_avis_anglais.pdf
                    [4]http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/eppp-archive/100/201/300/cdn_medical_association/cmaj/vol-158/issue-12/1621.htm

                  • JGC

                    Ron Roy, are you suffering from some strange misapprehension that scientific disputes are settled by criminal or civil legal proceedings?

                    (By the way, your failure (as always) to offer any evidence in support of your claim is duly noted.)

                  • Marcel

                    Apparently, you are fairly new to the field, or you wouldn’t be so eager to promote what you obviously haven’t fully examined. My own studies of cancer and its treatment began in 1981 with a particular focus on plants and plant-derived compounds. You name the so-called alternative modality and I’ve probably encountered it, and spoken with those who eventually died regardless of taking them. If there were “dozens of non-toxic cancer cures that are more effective than chemotherapy”, I would know.

                    As difficult as it may be for you to believe, there are those whose sole purpose is to find less toxic “alternatives” to the present treatments available. Neither naturopaths or hockers of false hope, they scour the world for natural substances that could be reasonably safe and effective. Whether from plants, fungi, lichens, or marine organisms, the origin of the substance doesn’t matter.

                    Many in the field don’t work for large pharmaceutical companies armed with the funds to take the active substances to clinical trials. Instead, they toil for decades at publicly funded institutions and universities or small enterprises (often less than the size of many dietary supplement companies) in the hope of making a significant contribution to reducing the suffering of humanity.

                  • Ron Roy

                    You’re not as knowledgeable as you think. Haven’t you heard of Naessens or Burzinski or Hoxsey?

                  • Boris Ogon

                    Are you talking about the cancer cures used by Dr Farid Fata who is now serving 45 years in jail for treating 553 patients for cancer who never had it.

                    You’re quantitatively off by two orders of magnitude and qualitatively embarrassing yourself, but the latter is par for the course.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Prove it.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Ronnyboy, let me lecture you. YOU claim something, you have to come up with the data. Is that so difficult to understand ? So where are your studies re 714x ? On the table or be called an idiot.

                  • Ron Roy

                    The Story of Gaston Naessens Featured in Canada’s Saturday Night Magazine

                    In it’s December issue, Canada’s popular magazine, Saturday Night,
                    featured the trials and victories of eminent biologist Gaston Naessens.
                    The well-written 12 page article chronicled the life of Naessens from
                    the discovery of the somatid cycle (see Figure 1) to the development of
                    the formula 714-X, to the trials and persecution he faced and continues
                    to face. Below is a historical summation of the article:

                    Late 1940’s – From the work of individuals such as Béchamp and Emile
                    Doyen, Naessens began work on what would become the somatiscope. What
                    would later be termed dark-field microscopy (but not as sophisticated),
                    Naessens’ instrument allowed him to examine live blood at extreme
                    magnifications as well as with exceptionally high resolution. One
                    improvement with this instrument is its ability to see particle via
                    light refraction as opposed to traditional staining methods.

                    Mid 1950’s — Moved lab to Paris from Lyon, France. Opposition began
                    to mount from the traditional medical authorities due to innovative
                    theories and treatments, not to mention successes.

                    Early 1960’s — Naessens treated over 10,000 individuals afflicted
                    with various illnesses, many life-threatening, with extraordinary
                    results. On the other side, he was twice brought before the “bar”
                    (medical authorities). He was fined heavily and forced to close his
                    Paris lab. Much of his equipment was confiscated.

                    1962 — Naessens tried again to start his laboratory on the island of
                    Corsica, but Corsica was still France. Patients continued to seek him
                    out, as did the authorities.

                    1964 — Naessens pursued his work in Canada, leaving Corsica with only a few key components of his microscope.

                    Late 1960’s — He received a $25K grant from the National Research
                    Council as a consultant on microscopy. However, this was quickly revoked
                    due to his troubles with the French medical authorities of past years.

                    1971 — Gaston Naessens began again as a medical researcher. The head
                    of the MacDonald Stewart Foundation (organization which funded orthodox
                    cancer research for many years), David Stewart, agreed to finance
                    Naessens’ research personally and establish a laboratory for him on the
                    MacDonald Tobacco Company’s premises in Montreal. This infuriated the
                    orthodox oncologist on the research wing, and Naessens was forced to
                    move to a low-key spot in Rock Forest on the banks of the Magog River
                    near Sherbrooke, Canada.

                    1972 — Initial meeting regarding additional funding for research
                    relating to Naessen’s somatid theory and the formula 714-X went well. An
                    assistant professor of pathology, Daniel Perey, volunteered to head the
                    proposed investigation.

                    Perey visited Naessens laboratory and described it as nothing short of a
                    revelation. However, his excitement was not shared by all.
                    Co-investigators with Perey questioned the validity of the somatid
                    cycle, as this contradicted the definition of disease taught in medical
                    schools.

                    Late 1972 — Perey extolled Naessens’ contributions to the field
                    stating, “The scope and insight which Mr. Naessens has brought to this
                    area of research potentially stand to benefit mankind and may be a
                    source of pride for Canada!”

                    1974 — The final report of the MacDonald Stewart Foundation rejected
                    the somatid theory and Naessens’ notion of bolstering the immune system
                    to fight cancer. It now became apparent that Perey, who was to be the
                    chief investigator, had been assigned other duties that effectively used
                    up the time to run the Naessens study. This duty was passed on to a
                    husband-and-wife team of researchers who were not in the least
                    interested in truly researching the brilliant theories of Naessens.
                    Their focus was only on one large form of the somatid cycle that had
                    been described as a bacterium by German researchers who had isolated it
                    in the 1930’s. Overall, they dismissed the stages of the somatid cycle
                    as “artifacts” produced by mistakes during the process required to
                    observe them. Perey’s response in relation to the researchers was,
                    “microbiological dogmas are so entrenched in this couple’s minds that
                    they do not allow themselves the luxury of challenging them.”

                    Late 1974 — Dr. Raymond Keith Brown, a consultant for New York’s
                    Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center visited Rock Forest. Brown’s memo
                    to the center read,”What I have seen is a microscope that reveals with
                    spectacular clarity the motion and multiplicity of pleomorphic organisms
                    in the blood which are intimately associated with disease states. The
                    implications…are staggering….It is imperative that what its
                    inventor, a dedicated biological scientist, is doing, and can do, be
                    totally reviewed. I am convinced that he is an authentic genius and that
                    his achievements cut across and illumine some of the most pertinent
                    areas of medical science. If the review of his work is confirmed, this
                    man should be brought to New York and given unlimited support and
                    facilities to continue his research.”

                    Dr. Brown, along with an oncologist and microscopist eventually
                    drafted a second memorandum that reiterated the first. Unfortunately,
                    Naessens’ name appeared on the American Cancer Society’s “blacklist” and
                    the excitement subsided.

                    August, 1980 — Naessens supplied 714-X to Dr. Gaetan Jasmin, a
                    professor of pathology and medicine at the University of Montreal who
                    was willing to embark on the standard animal-control test; that is,
                    injecting the 714-X into cancerous and noncancerous rats. Dr. Jasmin
                    concluded the substance had no effect and the results were reported in
                    the MacDonald Stewart foundation literature in 1982. But, Jasmin refused
                    to follow Naessens specific protocol for the use of the substance. He
                    had injected the medicinal into the tumors themselves rather than into
                    the lymphatic system, a procedure he decided was impossible. Whereas
                    standard cancer treatments follow that procedure, Naessens’ truly
                    holistic approach was designed to treat the symptom via the cause — the
                    diametrical opposite of orthodox oncological approaches.

                    Throughout the 1970’s & 1980’s, doctors and patients alike
                    continued to flock to Rock Forest. The doctors learned about the new
                    biology, while the suffering patients were taught to inject themselves
                    with 714-X or referred to doctors who were willing to treat them.
                    Tremendous results continued as well.

                    December, 1984 — The police and officers of the Quebec Medical
                    Corporation raided Naessens’ house and laboratory, seizing vials of
                    714-X and some 150 medical files. Charges would be brought some 5 years
                    later.

                  • David

                    Did you actually read the above Ron? It is not a glowing endorsement of the guy. It basically says he was considered and labelled a quack by everyone.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Really

                    Late 1974 — Dr. Raymond Keith Brown, a consultant for New York’s
                    Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center visited Rock Forest. Brown’s memo
                    to the center read,”What I have seen is a microscope that reveals with
                    spectacular clarity the motion and multiplicity of pleomorphic organisms
                    in the blood which are intimately associated with disease states. The
                    implications…are staggering….It is imperative that what its
                    inventor, a dedicated biological scientist, is doing, and can do, be
                    totally reviewed. I am convinced that he is an authentic genius and that
                    his achievements cut across and illumine some of the most pertinent
                    areas of medical science. If the review of his work is confirmed, this
                    man should be brought to New York and given unlimited support and
                    facilities to continue his research.” Now this is before the MEDICAL MAFIA got involved to suppress another cancer cure that would compete with their poison /cut and burn treatments.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Again tales from the stone age. The Polymorphism hypothesis is dead just, as in “This parrot is dead” by Monty Pythons – as is the microscope. BTW, Ron, it is very easy to impress people.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Pierre Antoine Bechamp, Royal Raymond Rife and Gaston Naessens and many others all PROVED that polymorphism was true. See what I mean when I said you have tunnel vision? A product of your education I suspect.
                    Not only is there variation amongst humans in the genera and species of
                    the bacteria that invade or live within us, but the organisms themselves
                    often are highly diverse. Thus, substantial polymorphism exists within
                    exogenous organisms such as Streptococcus pyogenes, Borrelia species, and Neisseria meningitidis, and amongst indigenous bacteria such as Escherichia coli and Helicobacter pylori (7). Diversity per se is not an indication of virulence, since, for example, Mycobacterium tuberculosis is relatively clonal and H. pylori highly polymorphic.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    The reply consists of two words: Scientific bullshit. None of them subjected their data to peer review, or in fact presented *any* serious study in the field. The problem is not my eduction, but your lack thereof. BTW, I have to thank you. I am using our conversation to exemplify for my students how science does not work. We have a lot of fun.

                  • Ron Roy

                    An answer I expected from someone who is too proud to admit they’re wrong.

                  • Ron Roy

                    An answer I expected from someone who is too proud to admit they’re wrong.

                  • David

                    is this this the Bechamp that died in 1908? We are going by his findings?

                  • Ron Roy

                    By tour logic then we shouldn’t go by any ” findings” that are more than a few years old. So I guess that means the theory of relativity, the theory of evolution, the germ theory etc should be ignored because they’re sooooo old.

                  • Jonathan Graham

                    By tour logic then we shouldn’t go by any ” findings” that are more than a few years old.

                    Is “tour logic” an American thing? Anyway this is a classic strawman. David is likely arguing that Bechamp’s wrong ideas about cell theory and germ theory were both discarded long ago.

                    It’s not simply that something is old, it’s the fact that we expect science to EVOLVE. You appear to believe that if one person in a lab coat believed something then it stands for all time.

                    Which is interesting because it bespeaks of a kind of worship of scientists (those who you already agree with) that goes light-years beyond any desire for scientific validation that pro-vaccine folk have.

                  • shay simmons

                    Hey, don’t blame Ron on us. After all, you guys have your own homegrown whackaloons up there.

                  • Jonathan Graham

                    Don’t I know it. When you comment on a Disqus page the mods are sent the registration email and the IP of the poster. Being a mod on my own page I was saddened by how many whackadoos were Canadian.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Again tales from the stone age. The Polymorphism hypothesis is dead just, as in “This parrot is dead” by Monty Pythons – as is the microscope. BTW, Ron, it is very easy to impress people.

                  • Boris Ogon

                    Are you talking about the cancer cures used by Dr Farid Fata who is now serving 45 years in jail for treating 553 patients for cancer who never had it.

                    You’re quantitatively off by two orders of magnitude and qualitatively embarrassing yourself, but the latter is par for the course.

                    Prove it.

                    Which part? The dismayingly brain-dead assertion that none of Fata’s patients had cancer, or that your stock in trade is making a fool of yourself?

                    The first one is easy.

                  • Ron Roy

                    It sucks when one of your heroes gets nailed heh. He actually had 1200 patients and the investigation is ongoing. 553 so far:http://www.nbcnews.com/health/cancer/farid-fata-doctor-who-gave-chemo-healthy-patients-faces-sentencing-n385161
                    Who’s the fool now Booring?

                  • Ron Roy
                  • hicusdicus

                    And Mr Ron Roy is one of the gullible and proud of it.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Look at who’s calling the kettle black.

                  • hicusdicus

                    Is that a racist comment????

                  • Ron Roy

                    OMG NO. Ok look who’s calling the kettle multicolored? Is that better?

                  • http://perfectlycrazydragon.tumblr.com/ One other person is typing.

                    Nah. That’s lloyd lisco’s schtick.

                    Pretty sure RR’s just calling you a hypocrite.

                  • hicusdicus

                    Ten thousand volts will rid anybody of their germs.

                  • http://www.pseudolaw.com Ken S.

                    Is that like R2-45? That exteriorizes most anybody! 😉

                  • hicusdicus

                    I think it is means vaporises anybody during the light show.

                  • http://www.pseudolaw.com Ken S.

                    Is that like R2-45? That exteriorizes most anybody! 😉

                  • hicusdicus

                    Does he have to shoot himself in the knee because his feet are in his mouth?

                • http://perfectlycrazydragon.tumblr.com/ One other person is typing.

                  Hired those independent scientists yet?

              • Ron Roy

                If Rife’s work had not been squelched by the MEDICAL MAFIA’S henchman Morris Fishbein ( also know as the greatest mass murderer in history ) diseases would be a thing of the past.

                • toejam

                  For the dead they are a thing of the past.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Oh great comeback. Didn’t Gorski supply you with a computer that’s linked to all the other Gorskiits?

                  • http://perfectlycrazydragon.tumblr.com/ One other person is typing.

                    Why don’t you ask Gorski that?

                    But I disqus does have a follow feature? And a reccomend feature? And people could read Gorski’s blog and comment with ‘Have you seen this? ‘

                    Just out of curiosity, RR, does it ever occur to you to try to consider explanation that don’t depend on conspiracies?

                    Thank you for not calling people shills though, RR.

                • http://perfectlycrazydragon.tumblr.com/ One other person is typing.

                  Again, why did countries with socalised medicine participate in this conspiracy?

                  • Ron Roy

                    You proceed on a false assumption. You actually believe the people in power, in those countries, couldn’t be bribed to tow the MEDICAL MAFIA’S line. Over 50 people who oppose the MEDICAL MAFIA have been suicided recently ( not a typo ) in this country alone.

                  • http://perfectlycrazydragon.tumblr.com/ One other person is typing.

                    Presumption that they’re right which can be overturned with sufficient evidence. Hired the independent scientists yet, Ron Roy?

                  • Marcel

                    Oh, so you choose to believe the profitable propaganda spewing from Mike Adams rather than substantiated facts. That explains a lot. Obviously, you don’t have much background in science or you would be routinely challenging your own beliefs and both demanding and re-examining anything presenting as evidence.

              • Ron Roy

                Oh a quarter of a century ago OH! Then we should disregard all science that’s let say 10 years or older? Is that a fair number?

                • Thomas Mohr

                  You really do not understand how science works. Tell me, do you use a slide rule or a calculator to do your calculations ?

                  • toejam

                    He uses h[s fingers and if warm also his toes

                  • Mike Stevens

                    That helps him count up to 16.

            • Jonathan Graham

              You copy pasted the spelling errors right from the article you stole this from.

              From the source article which you didn’t read or look for:

              Virtually everyone agrees there have been major gains in treating and ”curing” some forms of cancer, including testicular cancer, Hodgkin’s disease and a vast array of childhood cancers and leukemias, among others. The gains are so great in these cases that virtually all analysts agree they must reflect improvements in the treatment and management of cancer victims.

              Also this is a THIRTY YEAR old article.

              • shay simmons

                I wonder why Ron is so allergic to giving credit to his sources.

                • Jonathan Graham

                  I tend to think Ron is simply a troll now. Perhaps he once believed something but now he’s just plays provocateur. So it doesn’t matter what his sources are or what they say.

                  • shay simmons

                    Its been amusing, watching him get pummeled on SBM. Wonder how long he’ll last?

                  • Petticoat Philosopher

                    Wait, he’s been on SBM too?

                  • shay simmons

                    As soon as Gorski published the VAXXED review. I don’t think Ron is too happy there.

                  • http://perfectlycrazydragon.tumblr.com/ One other person is typing.

                    Heh. I follow Ron Roy to see the latest nonsense to smack down. I don’t really care what he has to say – I just use him as ‘Oh look, there’s the walking checklist of what nonsense needs debunking for the lurkers.”

                  • Marcel

                    Fittingly, the photo at the head of this article reads Troll Ave N.

                • Ron Roy

                  I will in the future however my sources want the truth to get out so they don’t object if I neglect to give them credit.

                  • shay simmons

                    It’s not neglect.

                  • shay simmons

                    It’s not neglect.

                  • David

                    You are a real hero Ron. Selfishly sharing your knowledge. Even in the face of adversity such as 100s of thousands of peer reviewed journal papers and just as many researchers –you do not flinch because you have sources and data that is yet unrevealed.

                  • Ron Roy

                    ”100s of thousands of
                    peer reviewed journal papers and just as many researchers –” Oh yes great sources of info. All controlled by the adverting dollars of the drug industry. All part of the MEDICAL MAFIA.

                  • hicusdicus

                    You are just another nutty conspiracy advocate. Next time one of my heart arteries closes up I will just see a naturopath instead of a cath lab. Oh yeah. A phib, how does nature handle that? Also three bullets in the chest and gut and prnounced DOA????? What kind of remedy does a nature nutt have for that? I know, gun control.

                  • http://perfectlycrazydragon.tumblr.com/ One other person is typing.

                    Please can you explain why countries with socalised medicine would participate in this conspiracy?

                  • JGC

                    Your evidence that corporations and other entities that advertise in the pages of peer-reviewed journals control the content of the articles thye publish would be what exactly, Ron?
                    I mean, you do actually have something to bring t the table other than “The MEDICAL MAFIA! We all know what they’re like!”–don’t you?

                  • toejam

                    Ron Roy is a medical twit.

                  • Ron Roy

                    ”you do not flinch because you have sources and data that is yet unrevealed” Alright you got one answer right!

                  • Ron Roy

                    ”you do not flinch because you have sources and data that is yet unrevealed” Alright you got one answer right!

            • Damo

              You do know that 1984 was 32 years ago, right? You can’t use 32 year old data when talking about the efficacy of medical procedures, because they may have improved in those 30 years.

              What a buffoon.

              • Ron Roy

                Oh I’m sorry I didn’t realize that 30 years ago was ancient history. Buffoon hey. Say that to my face moron.

                • Thomas Mohr

                  Ron, in biology 30 years IS ancient history. Since you have no formal secondary education – which would have included the development since the 80ties – you do not realize that. Consequence: You make yourself a fool every time you post. As I said, I am using you in my lectures as an example how many adherents to alternative medicine tick and as example for the Dunning Krüger effect and we laugh a lot.

                  • Ron Roy

                    And use you as an example of how little someone who claims to be knowledgeable about vaccines knows so little and we laugh a lot.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Well, we laugh in classroom, you laugh in your cellar. That is the difference.

                  • Ron Roy

                    No actually the last time was in a room rented in a local arena.

                  • Ron Roy

                    No actually the last time was in a room rented in a local arena.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Well, we laugh in classroom, you laugh in your cellar. That is the difference.

                • Damo

                  In terms of data that has to do with the efficacy of a rapidly changing field like cancer research–ten years ago can be outdated. You can’t use a 30 year old article to describe current conditions in the world. That is like saying, “Popular Mechanics reported in 1984 that cellular phones will be here in ten years and electric cars are on the horizon” and then concluding that cellular phones will be available in 2026. When it is obvious that cellular phones exist now.
                  Also, if I ever had the displeasure of having a conversation with you in person, buffoon would be the kindest thing I would have to say to you.

          • kissmetoad

            No argument with that, just that it isn’t clear that the surgery would have saved his life–but it would have been his best chance.

            https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/one-more-thing/

            • joe

              Yes the point I am making regarding Homeopathy ( debunked anyway ) is always the same–if you have a headache see a Homeopath if it makes you happy BUT if you still have a headache a week later see a REAL doctor,this is the mistake that JOBS admits to making,

              • kissmetoad

                ok

            • toejam

              If they could have saved his life he would have had time to build another billion dollar yacht.

              • joe

                Yes but in fairness he made a lot of people happy with his electronic gadgets,I never begrudge anybody getting rich if they helped mankind in some way and lets face it there is a lot of happy people out there using Job’s creations.

                • toejam

                  I have read that he treated people badly and was not trust worthy. I have never like apple they get stuck in my teeth. But wait dosen’t an apple a day keep the medical mafia away??????

                  • joe

                    Are you bashing poor old Ron again?

                • joe

                  Do you mean he treated co-workers badly or just anybody?I can not argue that because I really don’t know, but I think you would agree that there are a lot of people out there that do like his gadgets BTW I am a Microsoft person,Not saying that Bill Gates is any better than Jobs.

                • toejam

                  My wife is always mad at me for keeping my digital communication box where the sun does not shine. I tell her that is how I keep it charged. She did not buy it but actually she did purchase it and has been torturing me with it ever since. She calls and checks on what I am doing on a regular basis and tells me to get off the computer and the internet get out of my chair and do something useful. Jobs and Gates are behind all this pain.

                  • joe

                    Gee I tell you what I have the same problem with my wife and you are right Gates and Jobs are behind this but what makes it worse I am sucked in to these forums to watch people like Ron and Lowell get pounded into the ground resulting in me laughing so much resulting in bladder leakage,it is better than watching tv.

              • kissmetoad

                MS HERMES: I am surprised you are letting these comments (by toejam and joe) which are totally off topic, to say the least, get through,

                If we are going to start debating who is or isn’t fit to survive cancer, well…I really don’t know what to say. Poor taste at the least.

            • AutismDadd

              sciencebasedmedicine buh wah ha ha not skeptical raptor shill?

          • hicusdicus

            Mr Jobs apparently over looked Vo Doo and speaking in tongues.

        • AutismDadd

          A Gorski minion, hang you head

      • hicusdicus

        prevent disease. How does one do that?

        • Ron Roy

          Oh go to an MD he’ll prescribe so many drugs you’ll forget you were ever sick or why you even went to see him in the first place.

          • hicusdicus

            There is nothing like oxycodone mixed with ativan to put a smile on your face. Beats eating a bowl of oatmeal then doing cartwheels to the bathroom.

            • Ron Roy

              Don’t do drugs but if they work for you… Don’t you get hurt doing cartwheels in the bathroom?

          • http://perfectlycrazydragon.tumblr.com/ One other person is typing.

            How would you know, Ron Roy? You avoid doctors like the result of improper oral hygiene.

        • joe

          I am sorry,you got me there.But I think the leading cause of death would be the abrupt stopping of breathing ( I hope I don’t sound like Ron )

          • toejam

            The leading cause of death is getting born and this can be controlled by banning zippers or putting your pants on backwards.

            • joe

              My bladder has gone again,you cut me up.

    • toejam

      Herbs and food its called the munchies.

  • Oliver Hyde

    this is what i have been saying about he for ages Your should read his book or i can save you the trouble and watch me read it https://youtu.be/jLAlHHvDhQ8

    • Marcel

      “Let me be perfectly clear”? Is it possible that Glidden missed the epic adventures of Tricky Dicky (former U.S. President Richard Nixon), widely known for the same line? Assuming he had one, perhaps the editor allowed it to remain out of spite. Fittingly, both Glidden and Nixon believe their own bull.

    • http://perfectlycrazydragon.tumblr.com/ One other person is typing.
  • Shelly

    This attitude is very sad indeed. I work in the allopathic world and it is more scary and more quackery. The clinical trials are supported by pharma and it is about big business. It isn’t about saving lives and doing no harm. For example, cholesterol. Who invented that cholesterol is bad for you? Chemotherapy…do no harm??? Seriously. There is a place for both allopathic and naturopathic. It is about patient ownership. Our society is quick to run to any doctor to fix simple things. Crazy. Naturopathic medicine provided 5 extra years with my son with a quality of life before he succumbed to a rare disease. This discussion is like democrat vs. republican stuff I see on the internet. So it didn’t work on as a naturopathic physician. You don’t have to ruin for all the AMAZING naturopaths out there who are doing good things for people.

    • Thomas Mohr

      Shelley, in medicine the principle of “do no harm” can be very dangerous, therefore doctors decide what causes less harm, treatment or letting the disease resolve for itself ? With regard to chemotherapy the answer is absolutely clear. Treatment. NDs who stick to their do no harm principle with cancer do no harm caused by the treatment, but kill the patients.

      • AutismDadd

        Isn’t it “ADMIT NO HARM” talk to my lawyer?

    • Thomas Mohr

      Shelley, in medicine the principle of “do no harm” can be very dangerous, therefore doctors decide what causes less harm, treatment or letting the disease resolve for itself ? With regard to chemotherapy the answer is absolutely clear. Treatment. NDs who stick to their do no harm principle with cancer do no harm caused by the treatment, but kill the patients.

    • David

      i am sorry for your loss. Can I ask what rare disease he may have had? Was there no known treatment in mainstream medicine?

    • hicusdicus

      What is the leading cause of harm in a humans life? Do you know?

      • Ron Roy

        The MEDICAL MAFIA! Did I get it right Gorski I mean hicusdicus

        • hicusdicus

          The leading cause of harm is getting born. Protect your unborn keep your pants zipped.

          • http://perfectlycrazydragon.tumblr.com/ One other person is typing.

            Well…providing you get that far. IIRC, half of pregnancies end in miscarriage.

            • toejam

              Then they did not get born.

              • http://perfectlycrazydragon.tumblr.com/ One other person is typing.

                Indeed.

                • toejam

                  Indeed, indeed!

            • Jonathan Graham

              I think it’s more like 15% if you’re talking about confirmed pregnancies. If you’re talking about failed implantation of a fertilized egg then it’s something like 75%-80%

              • http://perfectlycrazydragon.tumblr.com/ One other person is typing.

                Thanks.

              • http://perfectlycrazydragon.tumblr.com/ One other person is typing.

                I don’t think it’s technically a pregnancy until the fertlized egg successfully implants, . Though I’d have to double-check.

                15% sounds about right for confirmed pregnancies from WICR though. I think we’re probably talking about “pregnancies where we start counting from the successful implantation of a fertilized egg”

                • Jonathan Graham

                  I’d agree but I figured it’s a useful reference point since at one point in time there was talk about saving those poor fertilized ova from a fire.

                  I’d say for even the extreme pro-lifer who is even a little statistically minded there is some relevance since the vast majority of those frozen chosen are going to die. IIRC IVR has something like a 7% birth rate for transferring a single embryo.

                  • http://perfectlycrazydragon.tumblr.com/ One other person is typing.

                    Yes. So assume they’re all going to be implanted one at a time. There were 5000 fertilized ova, right?

                    So we’re looking at saving 350 children versus one child if they’re identical.

                  • Jonathan Graham

                    Absolutely and implantation doesn’t mean 5 year survival either. That’s not even taking into account that a significant portion of frozen embryos go unused. From there, I think the reasonable argument for pro-lifers is that on any given day they prioritize some lives over others. So it is at least plausibly consistent for them to consider the embryos “sacred life” and still prioritize the rescue the 5 year old.

                    However it means getting rid of the internally ridiculous axiom that all life is identical and embrace the relative value of life that they employ pretty much every day.

                  • http://perfectlycrazydragon.tumblr.com/ One other person is typing.

                    “Absolutely and implantation doesn’t mean 5 year survival either. ” Indeed.

                    I’m personally saving the 5-year-old over an actual baby which is obviously independently alive in the sense that the mother of a 1-month-old can hand the baby to someone else. Because I stand a much better chance of keeping a five-year-old alive for a few hours while I try to figure out who’s supposed to have the kid – if there wasn’t help available quickly.

                    I could at least , in theory, put a plate in front of a five-year-old – I don’t have the first clue how I’d feed a baby.

                    “That’s not even taking into account that a significant portion of frozen embryos go unused. ”

                    I think you could probably assume, for the sake of the hypothetical, that these embryos are all ones that are going to be used for pregnancy reasons.

                    “From there, I think the reasonable argument for pro-lifers is that on any given day they prioritize some lives over others. So it is at least plausibly consistent for them to consider the embryos “sacred life” and still prioritize the rescue the 5 year old.” Y

                    Yep. Exactly.
                    Something similar to the reasonable sentiments already expressed.

                    “However it means getting rid of the internally ridiculous axiom that all life is identical” Yep. This.

                    ” and embrace the relative value of life that they employ pretty much every day.” Indeed. That’s of course what I’m getting at.

                  • Jonathan Graham

                    that these embryos are all ones that are going to be used for pregnancy reasons.

                    That’s what I figured you meant but I was pointing out that a considerably portion of embryos which are intended for pregnancy don’t get used. This creates an ethical quandry for some.

                  • http://perfectlycrazydragon.tumblr.com/ One other person is typing.

                    Don’t think it really matters. Increase the number of embryos as much as you like to get net amount of embryos >1 and figure out who you help.

                  • Jonathan Graham

                    Fair enough. So, what occurs to me now is: Does the argument move in the other direction? Sure fertilized ova are not equivalent to human but are they valueless?Is there a quantity of fertilized ova which in a purely rational sense are worth the life of a child?

                  • Jonathan Graham

                    Did you notice this: https://disqus.com/home/channel/oneholycatholicapostolic/discussion/channel-oneholycatholicapostolic/what_should_i_choose/

                    Perhaps it’s just me but there’s appears to be a considerable lack of hostility and weaseling for ethical dilemmas that aren’t analogous to abortion.

                  • http://perfectlycrazydragon.tumblr.com/ One other person is typing.

                    Interesting observation. I don’t know what to do with this piece of info though.

                  • Jonathan Graham

                    Perhaps it just means that the resistance you were seeing was just an implicit argument by consequence. People don’t like the idea that an argument might land themselves at having to accept that they already treat embryos as “not identical to humans”.

          • Ron Roy

            I prefer to use a raincoat.

            • toejam

              Okay now we know your hobby.

              • Ron Roy

                Your wife wishes you had one.

    • http://perfectlycrazydragon.tumblr.com/ One other person is typing.

      Please tell us how you factually established the “5 extra years” was caused by Naturopathy, I trust it is on some basis other than “Post Hoc Ergo Proper Hoc”?

    • http://perfectlycrazydragon.tumblr.com/ One other person is typing.

      Please tell us how you factually established the “5 extra years” was caused by Naturopathy, I trust it is on some basis other than “Post Hoc Ergo Proper Hoc”?

    • Jonathan Graham

      The clinical trials are supported by pharma

      I always find this criticism odd. Are you suggesting that clinical trials for a new drug should be the financial responsibility of someone other than the person trying to get the drug approved?

      and it is more scary and more quackery.

      More quackery than acupuncture? Reiki? Ayurvedic medicine?

    • Thomas Mohr

      Shelly apparently you do not know how manufacturers of naturopathic drugs function. It works basically the same as any pharma company, with the exception that they have far less Research and Development and actually higher profit margins.

      • Ron Roy

        Oh yeah big pharm does so much research as to the safety of their ” medications” that every time I turn on my television there’s an add by a lawyer or law firm saying: ” If you been harmed by such and such a drug please call us and we’ll get you the money you deserve”. No wonder the Federal Government has to accept the liability for vaccine damage.

        • Boris Ogon

          No wonder the Federal Government has to accept the liability for vaccine damage.

          Your inability to even get your antivaccine talking points correct is just sad.

          • Ron Roy

            Oh and where was I wrong?

      • Ron Roy

        Oh yeah big pharm does so much research as to the safety of their ” medications” that every time I turn on my television there’s an add by a lawyer or law firm saying: ” If you been harmed by such and such a drug please call us and we’ll get you the money you deserve”. No wonder the Federal Government has to accept the liability for vaccine damage.

  • Shelly

    This attitude is very sad indeed. I work in the allopathic world and it is more scary and more quackery. The clinical trials are supported by pharma and it is about big business. It isn’t about saving lives and doing no harm. For example, cholesterol. Who invented that cholesterol is bad for you? Chemotherapy…do no harm??? Seriously. There is a place for both allopathic and naturopathic. It is about patient ownership. Our society is quick to run to any doctor to fix simple things. Crazy. Naturopathic medicine provided 5 extra years with my son with a quality of life before he succumbed to a rare disease. This discussion is like democrat vs. republican stuff I see on the internet. So it didn’t work on as a naturopathic physician. You don’t have to ruin for all the AMAZING naturopaths out there who are doing good things for people.

  • Nancy Campbell

    i write this as a 77 year old patient who has relied on naturopathic medicine for 25 years and take no medication. I suffered from digestive issues for years and had IBS when I worked in the corporate world. 2 weeks after I left it was gone so I attributed it to stress. Then the problem returned a few years ago minus the cramping. Once again MDs diagnosed it as IBS. I knew it was not. My naturopath suggested a food allergy test. Bingo, I am highly allergic to soy and I was drinking 2 soy based protein drinks a day. As you probably know, soy is in everything. Have struggled with sleep for years. New ND suggested a sleep study based on my labs of elevated Hemoglobin and Hematocrit. Now, 4 months later using a CPAP those levels are down. I will stick with ND care and rely on western medicine for any emergencies. The best for me is integrative medicine.

    • hicusdicus

      If you want to sleep just smoke some pot and eat steel cut oats. Yes and paint a white line from the bed to the bathroom.

    • Mike Stevens

      Blood work to identify high haematocrit and Hb levels, and cPAP therapy are what you call “western medicine”.
      Are you prepared to put your money where your mouth is and throw away your cPAP machine?

      • Nancy Campbell

        It’s called integrative medicine not just western medicine. Why would I want to throw away my cPAP when I see improvement in my values with the therapy? What is your point?

        • http://perfectlycrazydragon.tumblr.com/ One other person is typing.

          “Rely on western medicine for emergencies.” Why don’t you trust integreative medicine in emergencies?

          • http://www.pseudolaw.com Ken S.

            Clearly, it’s because patients in the Emergency Department are often unable or unwilling to properly commit to their healing. Forcing innocent naturopaths to attempt to heal such patients would be unfair to them and the reputation of their practice!

            • http://perfectlycrazydragon.tumblr.com/ One other person is typing.

              Now, now, let your classmate try and answer. 😉

            • http://perfectlycrazydragon.tumblr.com/ One other person is typing.

              Now, now, let your classmate try and answer. 😉

          • http://www.pseudolaw.com Ken S.

            Clearly, it’s because patients in the Emergency Department are often unable or unwilling to properly commit to their healing. Forcing innocent naturopaths to attempt to heal such patients would be unfair to them and the reputation of their practice!

          • Mike Stevens

            Good point.
            Cue Mitchell and Webb A&E sketch. ;p

            • http://perfectlycrazydragon.tumblr.com/ One other person is typing.
              • Mike Stevens

                Thanks!

                • http://perfectlycrazydragon.tumblr.com/ One other person is typing.

                  Other fun things to do: Post historical paramedic sketches from HH.

        • Mike Stevens

          “It’s called integrative medicine not just western medicine. Why would I want to throw away my cPAP when I see improvement in my values with the therapy? What is your point?”

          Recall you said that you were on cPAP therapy. This is clearly conventional, “westernised” medicine, not some “alternative” or “complementary” therapy.

          You stated, and I quote: “New ND suggested a sleep study based on my labs of elevated Hemoglobin and Hematocrit. Now, 4 months later using a CPAP those levels are down. I will stick with ND care and rely on western medicine for any emergencies. The best for me is integrative medicine.”

          My point is that without the western medicine (cPAP) then the naturopathic (ND) care would not be able to sort out your hypoxic sleep disorder. The definition of “integrative” is medicine that combines conventional (western) medicine with complementary medicine. You clearly indicated you would stick to naturopathy, and only use western medicine for emergencies.

          That being the case, you should stop your cPAP.

          • Nancy Campbell

            I seems to me that you are just trying to twist and turn what I am saying so I’m going to stop this conversation. In case you didn’t get it, western medicine did not catch the sleep problem. And maybe I should have said integrative medicine in the beginning., Have fun finding another person you can try to devalue. I’m not interested. I know what has worked for me for 25 years.

            • Mike Stevens

              Western medicine may not have “caught” your sleep apnea problem, but it most definitely has provided you with the successful treatment for it.
              That is all I am saying.

            • http://perfectlycrazydragon.tumblr.com/ One other person is typing.

              Why do you not trust integrative medicine in an emergency?

            • Xerxes Croes

              Nope, Mike just showed your hypocrisy – I don’t believe you are a patient; I think you are an ND student trying not to feel like shit you are studying bullshit..

        • David

          How did the naturopath test for food allergies. Did they do the bogus test where they have you hold a vial of allergen and see if you respond. Or did they actually do a scratch test

          • Nancy Campbell
            • Thomas Mohr

              Oh the good old IgG ELISA. Sorry, Nancy but this test doesn’t work in food allergies. Aside that Nancy, if you are highly allergic to soy beans (as you wrote) then you would not drink a soy drink 2 times a day because it would make you feel miserable. You would notice that without testing.

              • Jonathan Graham

                Exactly. RR’s story sounds…how do you say…made up.

                So his mom gets hives every single time she drinks milk. How often would someone drink milk who gets hives. Why would that person even bother with the process of visiting their GP, getting a referral to an allergist. So they can get a scratch test which if positive tells them what they already know and if negative isn’t going to have them drinking milk.

            • http://perfectlycrazydragon.tumblr.com/ One other person is typing.

              I doubt RR would have been happy with that though. “Needles in the bloodstream” is a cause of alarm even when they go in muscle or skin. I don’t get it, either.

            • Xerxes Croes

              You’re not a patient; you are a naturopath coming up with a bs story, you are posing, you are a fraud just like NDs are.

          • Ron Roy

            The scratch test is very unreliable. My mother would get hives after drinking milk so when she was at the Lahey Clinic in Boston, for an unrelated cause, she asked them to test her for a milk allergy ( just to confirm her belief )and they gave her the scratch test. The test came out negative. She then asked for a glass of milk and low and behold she broke out in hives. The doctor couldn’t understand it but he was convinced it was a milk allergy.

            • Jonathan Graham

              Elapsed time between ingesting the milk and hives?

              • Ron Roy

                Minutes I was a witness. Doctor was shocked but admitted the hives were due to her drinking milk.

                • Jonathan Graham

                  Like five seconds? Fifteen seconds? One minute? Fifteen minutes? An hour?

                  The doctor’s opinion isn’t that relevant. Since he/she is only observing the hives no other diagnostics are being done such as an IgE test.

                  • Ron Roy

                    It happened EVERY TIME SHE CONSUMED MILK. Johnny are you to fucking proud to admit you’re wrong? It’s that swollen head of yours.

                  • Jonathan Graham

                    I just asked a question. What’s your problem?

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    So what ? Oral exposure to the food in question is a standard testing method.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Again you intentionally missed the point in order to make yourself look more intelligent than you are. Listen very carefully the point was that the scratch test is not always r e l i a b l e. Did you get that?

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    You are in no position whatsoever to judge about the sensitivity or specificity of a test. Do you know why ? You lack proper education.

                  • Ron Roy

                    I haven’t been brainwashed.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Of course not. Brainwashing requires first and foremost a brain that can be washed.

                  • joe

                    Oh dear there goes my bladder again,touche”

                  • Ron Roy

                    Tommy made a mistake I have a brain. He’s the one who couldn’t possibly have been brainwashed. My apologies Tommy.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Again you intentionally missed the point in order to make yourself look more intelligent than you are. Listen very carefully the point was that the scratch test is not always r e l i a b l e. Did you get that?

                  • joe

                    Poor Ron,reduced to rude language AGAIN.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Oh I’m sorry. NOT

                  • Jonathan Graham

                    So I take it you’re not going to answer?

      • Nancy Campbell

        It’s called integrative medicine not just western medicine. Why would I want to throw away my cPAP when I see improvement in my values with the therapy? What is your point?

    • Damo

      What you just described is not naturopathic medicine.

  • Ron Roy

    WOW A comments section loaded with GORSKIITS

    • JGC

      Let’s assume that were the case–did you have a point? identifying posters as “GORSKIITS” or anything else does nothing to address the content of their posts

      • http://perfectlycrazydragon.tumblr.com/ One other person is typing.

        Hey now, give Ron Roy some credit for improvement. Ron Roy’s managed to refrain from claiming people are being paid for a whole one comment. 😉

        • smittypap

          I thought that was implied.

          • http://perfectlycrazydragon.tumblr.com/ One other person is typing.

            The shill gambit from Ron Roy or the implied praise?

            If the praise for Ron Roy then we’re still trying to teach Ron Roy how to count from 0 to 100 so baby steps.

            If the shill gambit from RR then RR usually makes it explicit – so he still deserves praise for improvement.

            • Ron Roy

              Your lips are moving but nothing is said is intelligible.

              • http://perfectlycrazydragon.tumblr.com/ One other person is typing.

                I know, monkey. That’s why I was talking to the organ grinder.

                I’m sorry but this conversation with smittypap requires being able to count from 0 to 100.

              • Boris Ogon

                Your lips are moving but nothing is said is intelligible.

                If you’re going to invoke Pink Floyd, just do it rather than making a stupid hash of the original.

            • smittypap

              LOL. For the record, I was referring to the shill gambit. Your praise was quite explicit.

              • http://perfectlycrazydragon.tumblr.com/ One other person is typing.

                Well, if we can wean him down to just implied then we might be able to get down to subtler and subtler implications until he’s completely eating solid food.

    • Damo

      WTF is a GORSKIIT?

      • http://perfectlycrazydragon.tumblr.com/ One other person is typing.

        A regular at David Gorski’s blog.

        • Damo

          Oh, ok. I visited Natural News once (they banned me quickly). They hate Gorski, but I haven’t a clue who he is. I may have been to his blog once or twice.

          • David

            I have been banned at natural news after one comment that wasn’t even inflammatory. Talk about censorship. We are much more open here—look how long ron roy has lasted

            • Marcel

              Four years ago, I attempted to post a rational statement of scientific fact at Dr. Mercola’s site. My statement was immediately removed and any further comments I entered were blocked, including the question of why they were blocked. Apparently, Mercola is guilty of the same sort of censorship routinely practiced by the communist dictatorship running the government of China. Even so much as whiff of disagreement with his propaganda is enough to threaten his business of milking the gullible with falsehoods and outright stupidity.

              Speaking of selling unsupportable “health” propaganda for profits, I recently stumbled upon 2 other sites also riddled with nonsense: Green Med Info and Earth Clinic. I doubt whether any site presenting balanced, verifiable, substantiated facts on so-called “natural” medicines would stand a chance of becoming profitable. The problem is that relatively few are sufficiently versed in medical science and related subjects to even begin to understand what they are reading, let alone discern the implications. What we have instead are essentially soap operas and bubble machines.

            • Damo

              Yeah, I got banned because I pointed out some factual errors in one of his articles. Before my post was deleted though, I got a lot of hateful responses.

  • Marcel

    Yet another example of “too much quackery” by a naturopath:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/true-crime/wp/2016/07/26/va-man-claimed-he-had-cure-for-cancer-charged-1200-per-bottle-cops-say-its-bogus-bust-him/

    If you dare, check out his web site, while you still can:

    http://integrativehealthw.com/Home/

    The “Disclaimer” at the site speaks volumes.

    Thanks to Stephen Barrett at quackwatch.org for bringing this case to international attention. Still, I confess to scientific curiosity: what the heck was the naturopath selling for $1200 a bottle, and what evidence did he have that it could or would be effective?

    • Ron Roy

      You mean this Steven Barret:http://www.quackpotwatch.org/quackpots/quackpots/barrett.htm
      It is common knowledge
      that Stephen Barrett has been Officially Declared by the US Court
      System, in a PUBLISHED Appeals Court Decision (NCAHF v King Bio), to be
      “Biased, and unworthy of credibility.”

      • Luna

        I’m going to go out on a limb and bet that you are not a lawyer. That case doesn’t say what you think it says. Steven Barrett is never mentioned by name, much less labeled as “biased and unworthy of credibility.” The case deals with the burden of proof when a private plaintiff sues a company for misleading advertising under California law.

      • Thomas Mohr

        See, Ronnyboy, that is the difference between no education and a proper university degree. Contrary to you, the academics and scientists present here can assess the trustworthyness of a source first hand and do not have to rely on a court sentence which may be correct or may be not. To put it bluntly, I would be able to testify in court about the trustworthyness of a scientific source, you would not.

  • Lowell A

    Medical doctors kill hundreds of thousands of people per year, but somehow they get a “pass” by this unscientific blog that uses derogatory terms like “quack” over and over again. How about siting specific references for her information. There is no question that alternative practitioners use treatments that are marginally effective, without scientific research to back them up. – This does not mean that much if not most of the alternative treatments are quite effective, usually with very little or no toxicity.

    Naturopaths and other Alternative Practitioners have some treatments that do not work all the time or on everyone. Some treatments may not work at all with some people. It is even likely that there are alternative treatments that are used that don’t do much for anyone, ever, which should obviously be corrected. However, this is the case for main stream medicine as well. Its just that M.D. medical treatments can kill you, and by according to US national statistics, they quite often do.
    If patients would just get proper nutritional and dietary help from a “real” doctor. and by “real”, I mean one that understands that food is medicine, and that with proper supplemental, herbal, vitamin, and nutrient supplementation, one can halt and reverse many of the most serious conditions that plague society.

    Main stream medicine does pretty well with life saving surgery and antibiotics.
    However, this seems to be where their training falls short.
    Also, only a few percent of the population needs the help of a medical doctor for these treatments at any one time.

    On the other hand, most people over 50 suffer from either heart disease, high blood pressure, diabetes, cancer, autoimmune diseases, arthritis, osteoporosis, and a myriad of other chronic illnesses, all of which need help with stopping or reversing the progression of these horrible diseases.

    It is clear that main stream medicine is failing us and people are looking elsewhere for help.

    Just because Naturopathic medicine uses some treatments that may be ineffective for some or most patients has nothing to do with the fact that they help hundreds of thousands of people effectively treat or reverse their chronic illnesses each year.
    There is no question, that alternative medical fields need to do a better job at scientifically testing their treatments for efficacy. The untested treatments that are marginally effective, should only be used if the patient can afford the added treatment and it should be explained that the treatment is marginally effective.

    Main steam medicine suffers from the same problem. Look at chemotherapy and radiation. For most cancers, the 5 year survival rate is bout 3% ( only testicular and a couple other cancers do better ). Doctors prescribe antibiotics for a cold or the flu knowing full well it will do nothing, but they have not been trained about the damage wiping out beneficial intestinal bacteria have for protecting our immune system, so they are prescribing a treatment that they know is not effective, and have very little, if any knowledge about the real detrimental effects of the treatment on our health.

    The author of this website blog doesn’t seem to understand the serious problems with main stream medicine, and that people need real medical treatment for their illnesses.

    If main stream medicine does not have the answers, what do you expect them to do?
    Just suffer and die? Is that your solution?

    Naturopathic medicine needs to do a better job with their program and treatments, but they are one of the few practitioners that are offering real hope and lasting solutions for people who have lost all hope.

    – Lowell

  • Lowell A

    Medical doctors kill hundreds of thousands of people per year, but somehow they get a “pass” by this unscientific blog that uses derogatory terms like “quack” over and over again. How about siting specific references for her information. There is no question that alternative practitioners use treatments that are marginally effective, without scientific research to back them up. – This does not mean that much if not most of the alternative treatments are quite effective, usually with very little or no toxicity.

    Naturopaths and other Alternative Practitioners have some treatments that do not work all the time or on everyone. Some treatments may not work at all with some people. It is even likely that there are alternative treatments that are used that don’t do much for anyone, ever, which should obviously be corrected. However, this is the case for main stream medicine as well. Its just that M.D. medical treatments can kill you, and by according to US national statistics, they quite often do.
    If patients would just get proper nutritional and dietary help from a “real” doctor. and by “real”, I mean one that understands that food is medicine, and that with proper supplemental, herbal, vitamin, and nutrient supplementation, one can halt and reverse many of the most serious conditions that plague society.

    Main stream medicine does pretty well with life saving surgery and antibiotics.
    However, this seems to be where their training falls short.
    Also, only a few percent of the population needs the help of a medical doctor for these treatments at any one time.

    On the other hand, most people over 50 suffer from either heart disease, high blood pressure, diabetes, cancer, autoimmune diseases, arthritis, osteoporosis, and a myriad of other chronic illnesses, all of which need help with stopping or reversing the progression of these horrible diseases.

    It is clear that main stream medicine is failing us and people are looking elsewhere for help.

    Just because Naturopathic medicine uses some treatments that may be ineffective for some or most patients has nothing to do with the fact that they help hundreds of thousands of people effectively treat or reverse their chronic illnesses each year.
    There is no question, that alternative medical fields need to do a better job at scientifically testing their treatments for efficacy. The untested treatments that are marginally effective, should only be used if the patient can afford the added treatment and it should be explained that the treatment is marginally effective.

    Main steam medicine suffers from the same problem. Look at chemotherapy and radiation. For most cancers, the 5 year survival rate is bout 3% ( only testicular and a couple other cancers do better ). Doctors prescribe antibiotics for a cold or the flu knowing full well it will do nothing, but they have not been trained about the damage wiping out beneficial intestinal bacteria have for protecting our immune system, so they are prescribing a treatment that they know is not effective, and have very little, if any knowledge about the real detrimental effects of the treatment on our health.

    The author of this website blog doesn’t seem to understand the serious problems with main stream medicine, and that people need real medical treatment for their illnesses.

    If main stream medicine does not have the answers, what do you expect them to do?
    Just suffer and die? Is that your solution?

    Naturopathic medicine needs to do a better job with their program and treatments, but they are one of the few practitioners that are offering real hope and lasting solutions for people who have lost all hope.

    – Lowell

  • eliza

    Chemotherapy is proven to be ineffective -_- I get that big pharma is paying you mass amounts of money but cut the bullshit. You’re equally responsible for the deaths modern medicine causes.

    • David Wright

      So you won’t have a problem providing a citation supporting your claim chemotherapy is ineffective?

      • AutismDadd

        Here’s David who spells scenario SINARIO…snicker!!

        • David Wright

          Do you have citations to support Eliza’s claim?

          • AutismDadd

            Who’s that? Didn’t Eliza leave the building?

        • David Wright

          Do you have citations to support Eliza’s claim?

        • David Wright

          What are you talking about?

          • AutismDadd

            Over your head?

        • David Wright

          What are you talking about?

        • David Wright

          I get it now. I’m being trolled by a 12 year old.
          Good job.

          • AutismDadd

            Nice Sponge Bob photo. You should talk.

        • David Wright

          I get it now. I’m being trolled by a 12 year old.
          Good job.

      • Ron Roy

        All you have to do is open your eyes and see what happens to those who do get chemo. See that wasn’t hard was it?

        • David Wright

          Note: Ronnyboy…you need to think with your brain, not your eyes.

          Chemo drugs are serious business, that’s why we don’t give them to healthy people.

          Where I am, oncologist don’t paid by Big Pharma for prescribing chemo drugs.
          Certainly you have proper evidence to support your claim.
          Just link to it…it really isn’t that hard.

          • Ron Roy

            ” we don’t give them to healthy people”. Really? Doctor Farid Fata is more than likely one of many who don’t follow that protocol:http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/07/10/cancer-doctor-sentenced-years-horrific-fraud/29996107/

          • Ron Roy

            ” we don’t give them to healthy people”. Really? Doctor Farid Fata is more than likely one of many who don’t follow that protocol:http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/07/10/cancer-doctor-sentenced-years-horrific-fraud/29996107/

            • David Wright

              Ah Ronnyboy…there you go thinking with your eyes again. You honestly believe your N-1 example is evidence of a widespread (worldwide) problem?

              Give up; you’re in over your head.

              • Ron Roy

                Oh I’m sure Fata is the ONLY one who diagnosed people as having cancer when they didn’t. NOT He’s the first to make national headlines and he won’t be the last.

                • David Wright

                  And because this a-hole did it, all doctors do it?

                  I’ll make it easy.

                  What percentage of doctors do you think are doing it and just haven’t been caught?

                  Does the fact that medicine isn’t perfect somehow mean CAM works beyond a placebo effect?

                  And note: medicine is constantly working to improve.

                  Can you give me 3 CAM treatments that have changed the world.

                  In the end, you are just trying to change the subject. Deflecting the conversation because you’ve go NO evidence for ANY OF YOUR CLAIMS.

                  Note: I used all CAPS because it’s true.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Give it time many more will be caught. Oh I know you’ll brush this aside because it’s “anecdotal” .Four people that I know ( two are close friends ) were all diagnose by the same doctor, who worked at the Androscoggin Valley Hospital in Berlin NH, as having prostate cancer and three succumbed to having their prostate glands removed. One however refused and later went to the same doctor and was told the same thing. He still refused. That doctor unexpectedly left town and then my friend went to see the new doctor who told him: “There’s nothing wrong with you”.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Give it time many more will be caught. Oh I know you’ll brush this aside because it’s “anecdotal” .Four people that I know ( two are close friends ) were all diagnose by the same doctor, who worked at the Androscoggin Valley Hospital in Berlin NH, as having prostate cancer and three succumbed to having their prostate glands removed. One however refused and later went to the same doctor and was told the same thing. He still refused. That doctor unexpectedly left town and then my friend went to see the new doctor who told him: “There’s nothing wrong with you”.

                • David Wright

                  And because this a-hole did it, all doctors do it?

                  I’ll make it easy.

                  What percentage of doctors do you think are doing it and just haven’t been caught?

                  Does the fact that medicine isn’t perfect somehow mean CAM works beyond a placebo effect?

                  And note: medicine is constantly working to improve.

                  Can you give me 3 CAM treatments that have changed the world.

                  In the end, you are just trying to change the subject. Deflecting the conversation because you’ve go NO evidence for ANY OF YOUR CLAIMS.

                  Note: I used all CAPS because it’s true.

        • Thomas Mohr

          All you have to do is compare those who get chemo with those who get your crap. The result is published in medical journals. The chance to die with your crap is more than twice as high.

          • Ron Roy

            Oh yes medical journals.Do you mean journals who rely on advertising dollars from the very companies who make chemo? My crap what exactly is my crap? Now don’t say bullshit.

            • David Wright

              Oh Ron. Now I just feel pity for you.
              Can show me some examples of journals that accept advertising dollars from big pharma…to publish fraudulent articles?

              I’m going to go out on a limb…you’ve NEVER gone to a medical school library and check out a medical journal (of any kind). I’m certain you have never looked at anything published outside the U.S.

              Do you know what scientific consensus is? Do you know why it trumps your personal stories?

              Here is an easy assignment for you.

              Google: Burden of Proof in Science

              Here is the info on the first hit on google:

              rationalwiki (dot) org/wiki/Burden_of_proof

              Burden of proof (or onus probandi in Latin) is the obligation on somebody presenting a new idea (a claim) to provide evidence to support its truth (a warrant). Once evidence has been presented, it is up to any opposing “side” to prove the evidence presented is not adequate. Burdens of proof are key to having logically valid statements: if claims were accepted without warrants, then every claim could simultaneously be claimed to be true.

              You see Ronnyboy (autismdadd, this applies to you also)
              “is the obligation on somebody presenting a new idea (a claim) to provide evidence to support its truth.

              Your conspiracy theories, one liners, and all your objections, ARE NOT EVIDENCE!! It only proves your overwhelming ignorance…and the reason nobody here takes you seriously.

              Give up. You’re in over your head.

              • Ron Roy

                Who said anything about fraudulent articles? I said:” journals who rely on advertising dollars from the very companies who make chemo?”

                https://theamericanscholar.org/flacking-for-big-pharma/

                • David Wright

                  Ronnyboy, are you saying this?

                  1. Big Chemo funds the medical journals

                  2. Medical journals, to keep the funds coming in, publish articles that support treating cancer with chemo, while suppressing research that proves otherwise

                  So if chemo does not work, where are studies conducted by doctors in hospitals and scientists AROUND the world, that show chemo doesn’t work?

                  Can you point to these studies; non-U.S. backed research? You still have not provided any evidence to support chemo doesn’t work.

                  You have linked to a magazine. It seems to support your preexisting ideas.

                  Now go and google “Confirmation Bias”

                • Overitmom

                  In your arguments, you show extreme cognitive dissonance and denial. Instead of arguing with facts, you dismiss it ALL by using the one same argument: Big Pharma. It’s a cop out. Why do you come on a “forum” where people are meant to exchange ideas, challenge notions and evolve in their thought process if you are not going to exchange your thoughts? Attacking someone’s ideas based on a cop out argument is a way for you to not have to think about what the person is saying. It’s transparent and everyone here sees it. I’d compare it to brainwashing in a cult like environment.

                  At the end of the day, start arguing for you side if you want to prove your point. show the results of your work – do science (which is a process not a corrupt company! anyone can do science and findings can be discussed!!!) And if you want your field to be respected, definitely DON’T participate in what you are reproaching from the medical industry!

              • Erika Stowe-Madison

                David! I suggest you read “The Emperor of All Maladies, A Biography of Cancer” by Siddhartha Mukherjee- an Oncologist

                https://www.amazon.com/Emperor-All-Maladies-Biography-Cancer/dp/1439170916

                You’ll see how effective Chemotherapy is, and how it was discovered…WWI, mustard gas…

                • David W

                  I will do that. Thanks

          • Ron Roy

            Oh yes medical journals.Do you mean journals who rely on advertising dollars from the very companies who make chemo? My crap what exactly is my crap? Now don’t say bullshit.

        • Thomas Mohr

          Ronnyboy, because I, contrary to you, CAN present data, here is a trial in breast cancer: http://wjso.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1477-7819-10-118

          In short: of the women undergoing standard therapy (+ chemo), 80% were still alive after 5 years, of those who subscribed to your shit it was 40% (Figure 1). I.o.W. half of the women who subscribed to your shit had a premature death. You and your ilks are co-responsible for that. Got it ?

          • Michael Orr

            Not to cast aspersions on your citation, but that study includes prayers as an alternative therapy. It doesn’t hold water for proving any particular modality works or doesn’t work, because it just lumps everything into 2 baskets. 1) chemo and 2) everything else.

            No relevant information can be gleaned from that study.

          • Michael Orr

            Not to cast aspersions on your citation, but that study includes prayers as an alternative therapy. It doesn’t hold water for proving any particular modality works or doesn’t work, because it just lumps everything into 2 baskets. 1) chemo and 2) everything else.

            No relevant information can be gleaned from that study.

      • Ron Roy

        I reluctantly have to back you, at least partially, on this one Davy boy. Chemo is very effective at helping oncologist pay for their new Mercedes not to mention adding a little $$$$ to the coffers of the drug industry.

    • Dacha

      Yep, “big pharma” is paying an obscure blogger to slander a statistically insignificant profession offering services utilized by far fewer than 1% of the population.

      All to suppress treatments that show little to no favorable outcomes when compared to control groups.

      That’s a pretty costly conspiracy for such little return.

    • Dacha

      Yep, “big pharma” is paying an obscure blogger to slander a statistically insignificant profession offering services utilized by far fewer than 1% of the population.

      All to suppress treatments that show little to no favorable outcomes when compared to control groups.

      That’s a pretty costly conspiracy for such little return.

  • rob

    If MD Medicine was so grad then why do most of them expose the truth of what’s going on? because they have woken up to the fact that big pharma Is all about money but not about being healthy just think about It even psychiatry at the beginning of time that started in the 60s to map out the future and thought they could create an disease from the time of birth so you believe In that?? when lots of kids died from the drugs the psychiatry offered them.

  • rob

    Also the reason It’s called alternative medicine because the people that designed modern medicine did that It was used for thousands of years and yet modern medicine was only around 100 years. Explain me that Britt Hermes????