In-office sales is an ethical problem for naturopathic medicine

14th Century Dispensary
A 14th century dispensary is similar to how supplements are sold by licensed naturopaths.

The internet never forgets. On May 31st, Facebook reminded me of an old post I made four years ago asking friends for ideas on merchandising in a “medical” setting. The truth is I was asking for help to create cute and catchy flair for supplements, health gadgets, and detox programs for sale at the naturopathic clinic where I worked.

Your Memories on Facebook screenshot

Most, if not all, naturopaths sell dietary supplements or medications (like thyroid hormones) directly to patients. Many naturopaths also sell “wellness packages” that bundle supplements with several office appointments, lab tests, and therapies such as acupuncture, lymph drainage, and intravenous injections of vitamins and minerals.  Very little, if any, of these products and services are supported by high-quality evidence. Nonetheless, naturopaths make money off these sales, and unlike in any other medical profession, this sort of profiteering is rampant in the naturopathic community and extremely unethical.


The conventional medical community has been clear on its professional opinion about the in-office sales of medical items: doctors should not sell stuff directly to patients. A 2012 American Medical Association Journal of Ethics paper on this topic states:

In-office sale of health-related products by physicians presents a financial conflict of interest, risks placing undue pressure on the patient, and threatens to erode patient trust and undermine the primary obligation of physicians to serve the interests of their patients before their own.

Furthermore, this AMA Journal of Ethics paper from 2010 states:

Physicians who choose to sell health-related products from their offices should not sell any health-related products whose claims of benefit lack scientific validity. When judging the efficacy of a product, physicians should rely on peer-reviewed literature and other unbiased scientific sources that review evidence in a sound, systematic, and reliable fashion.

Interesting. Naturopaths who chose to follow this guideline would probably have very little to sell!

A 2011 ethics statement from the American Association of Naturopathic Physicians (AANP) characterizes in-office pharmacies as having no inherent conflict of interest so long as the naturopath adheres to a few guidelines regarding profit, quality assurance, and medical recommendations. In my opinion, these statements does not rectify the conflict of interest that is inherent in all in-office pharmacies settings. The AANP’s position ignores the fact that naturopaths are profiting from the sale of items that have very little evidence, if any, to support their use. It seems that naturopathic professional organizations condone ethically dubious transactions.

Look no further than this post on the AANP website titled, “Using the Four Seasons Profitability,” in which it is recommended to sell a variety of dubious products and services by the season in order to “drive a little more business your way.” Naturopaths are obviously engaging in very questionable businesses practices that run deep in the profession.

In naturopathic school and residency, I learned that the sale of products directly to patients is central to the naturopathic business model. The Bastyr University teaching clinic has their own natural health “pharmacy” where patients could purchase supplements. There was even a naturopathic business course called Health of Business Business of Health (HBBH, for short), taught by a licensed naturopath, who guided naturopathic students and new graduates through the ins and outs of running a profitable practice. Students could earn course credit for taking HBBH courses.

Naturopaths justify their ethically flawed practice of selling supplements and products directly to patients in the following ways:

  • Patients save money when buying products from naturopaths
  • Patients have free-will to purchase elsewhere
  • Products sold by naturopaths have been vetted for quality

Let’s go through these claims and see how each holds up to scrutiny.

Do patients save money when buying supplements at a naturopathic clinic?

Probably not.

During my naturopathic residency, I oversaw the clinic’s dispensary, which stocked dietary supplements, herbal tinctures, protein powders, “detoxification” products, and retail items like cookbooks. Throughout my time at the clinic, I lowered overhead costs and increased revenue. I used to boast about this success on my resume.

Representatives from supplement companies that catered to naturopathic businesses frequently visited our practice to pitch new products. These reps were young, attractive, and often brought lunch. During these informal meetings, I helped establish business relationships that allowed the clinic to purchase products below wholesale prices. Then the clinic would mark-up these products between 65% and 100%, based on the original price, not our reduced, negotiated price. In my experiences, the savings were never passed onto the customer, I mean, patient. It was not explicitly disclosed to patients that we were making a profit on supplement sales that we prescribed to them in that so-called medical setting.

Are patients free to purchase their supplements from any retailer?

Not really.

Naturopathic clinics only offer the illusion of choice and use tactics to rope patients into buying products immediately after they are given a prescription or recommendation.

My naturopathic clinic in Seattle prominently displayed a sign visible upon walking through the front door: “Support small business. Buy local.” This sign was a clever marketing tactic. While we would inform patients that they could purchase their supplements elsewhere, we were also eroding their choice by selling at the checkout desk exactly what we would prescribe. Patients always seemed to support their local naturopath.

Specific items sold in naturopathic clinics are not always available in retail stores or online, which further coerces patients to buy directly from a naturopathic clinic. Naturopaths are increasingly turning to product lines that can only be sold by health care providers registered with the supplement company such as Pure Encapsulations, the product line we carried. This type of exclusivity provides an additional illusion that the clinic only offers premier, quality products, which further rationalizes price mark-ups.

Good stories can sell anything, and naturopaths have good, heartfelt stories. Naturopaths often serve as walking billboards for the alleged wonders of naturopathic medicine. Many have tales similar to my own psoriasis story. (Here is the two-line version: Conventional medicine disappointed me. I miraculously “cured” my psoriasis using naturopathic therapies.) I used my personal health story again and again when talking to prospective patients and selling supplements. I do not think I was intentionally using a sales tactic. I was unwittingly proselytizing to a vulnerable demographic who would do anything, and spend anything, to get better.

Do naturopaths sell only high-quality medical products?

Impossible to know.

The FDA does not guarantee the quality or safety of dietary supplements. Naturopaths can’t possibly guarantee quality or safety either. In 1994, the vitamin lobby was able to pass the Dietary Supplement Health and Education Act (DSHEA), which restricted the FDA from effectively regulating the vitamin and supplement industry. In other words, no one is regulating supplement companies. Yes, there is such as thing as “Big Vita,” and it strongly supports naturopathic lobbying efforts.

As a result of this unregulated market, the need emerged for so-called “supplement experts” to evaluate the claims, safety, and ingredients of supplement products. Despite being ill-equipped for the job, licensed naturopaths have stepped into this role, providing the image that they are able to judge a product’s safety and efficacy. For a great example of the tortuous reasoning of a licensed naturopath, which provides no helpful information for choosing a supplement, read this blog post on the AANP website. This is exactly the type of confusing advice on supplements one may receive from a licensed naturopath.

In practice, naturopaths tend to depend on the reputation of a supplement company when choosing medical products and supplements. I remember posts in the naturopathic social media groups asking for a “favorite supplement” recommendation for condition X, Y, and Z. Naturopaths are not independently vetting companies. They are asking for popular opinion and going with that in clinical practice.

Naturopaths need to stop selling stuff in their offices

The likelihood that a naturopath would profit off of his or her medical recommendations is practically guaranteed, even if unintentionally. It is a glaring conflict of interest for any medical professional to recommend a substance in one room and then in the next, offer it for purchase.

I know of only one naturopath who chooses not to sell supplements in his office due to the ethical concerns laid out above. There may be others, but just like the overall number of naturopaths who support the CDC childhood vaccination schedule in full, it is a very small percentage of the naturopathic profession. It could be a homeopathically low concentration at best.

Naturopaths who want to stop being portrayed as profit mongers must do better. Stop the in-office sale of medical products, supplements, homeopathic remedies, and items lacking high-quality evidence.

A real medical profession implements rules and codes to protect patients. Naturopathy turns a blind-eye to patient exploitation in selling supplements to patients.

Correction: An earlier version of this post incorrectly stated that the AANP does not have an ethics statement on in-office pharmacies. The text has been updated.
Image: By “Magister Faragius” (Ferraguth) of Naples (book scan of Tacuinum Sanitatis) [Public domain], via Wikimedia Commons
  • Shadeburst

    Erratum, for (I was miraculously “cured” my psoriasis using naturopathic therapies) write (I miraculously “cured” etc) or perhaps (My pioriasis was miraculously “cured” using etc)

  • PrimaryCareDoc

    Thanks for another great blog post. I have never had a patient who has gone to see a naturopath and not walked out the door with a couple of hundred dollars of supplements.

    • Ron Roy

      According to the AARP the average annual cost of prescription drugs for the elderly in 2013 was $11,34.00 and you dare mention a few hundred dollars worth of supplements!

    • Ron Roy

      According to the AARP the average annual cost of prescription drugs for the elderly in 2013 was $11,34.00 and you dare mention a few hundred dollars worth of supplements!

      • PrimaryCareDoc

        Liar. That is not true. Show me a citation that the average elderly person spends $11,340 a year on prescription drugs.

        • Ron Roy

          You’re calling the AARP a liar all I did was quote from their magazine.

          • Thomas Mohr

            You quotet from their findings. However, most likely you did not grasp the parameter they are measuring.

            • Ron Roy

              Oh no I DID grasp the parameters they are using. It’s you that can’t accept the fact that you can be wrong. Your rational=I’m a scientist don’t you dare question me you illiterate little…….. What’s the difference in between God and a doctor or scientists? God doesn’t think he’s a doctor or scientist.

          • Terrie_S

            Then provide a citation.

            • Ron Roy

              Idiot I did.

              • Thomas Mohr

                Nope, Ronnyboy, you did not. “According to the AARP” is not a citation. A citation is: author, title and publication. Aside that, you did not understand the parameter. Almost nobody shells out roughly USD 1000 per month for drugs only as you insinuate.It simply does not fly, Ronnyboy.

              • Thomas Mohr

                Nope, Ronnyboy, you did not. “According to the AARP” is not a citation. A citation is: author, title and publication. Aside that, you did not understand the parameter. Almost nobody shells out roughly USD 1000 per month for drugs only as you insinuate.It simply does not fly, Ronnyboy.

              • Terrie_S

                Okay, since you seem to have trouble with how citations work, let me be more specific. Please provide a citation in one of the following formats: APA, MLA or JAMA.

              • Terrie_S

                It occurs to me that my selection of citation styles is very American-centric, based on the styles most commonly used in American schools and American medicine, and I’m not sure if you’re American. So here is some guidance.

                MLA: https://style.mla.org/
                APA: https://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/560/01/
                JAMA: http://guides.med.ucf.edu/ld.php?content_id=5191991

                Hopefully, this will help you understand what is being asked of you when we say “provide a citation” and why “Acorrding to the AARP” is not a citation.

              • Terrie_S

                Still waiting on that citation. Without it, your claim is worthless. I can say “According to the AARP, Ron Roy doesn’t know what he’s talking about” and it’s equally valid as your claim.

            • Ron Roy

              Idiot I did.

      • Thomas Mohr

        The next hole in the knee, Ronnyboy. First, for the time around 2011, the annual total health care expeditures was: Quote: “n 2011, the median annual health care expenditure for persons age 65 and over was $4,206 (figure 2), with about one-quarter of the elderly having expenses under $1,478 (25th percentile) and one-quarter having expenses over $10,289
        (75th percentile). These quartile levels were higher than in 2001 (after adjusting for inflation from 2001 to 2011 dollars). (Source: https://meps.ahrq.gov/data_files/publications/st429/stat429.pdf)

        With ~USD 4.000.– expediture on total health care costs, a few hundred bucks of supplements count. Second, Ronnyboy, selling supplements under false scientifc claims (as many NDs do) is and remains fraud.

        • Ron Roy

          As usual you have your head up your ass.

          American workers saw their out-of-pocket medical costs jump again
          this year, as the average deductible for an employer-provided health
          plan surged nearly 9% in 2015 to more than $1,000, a major new survey of employers shows.

          The
          annual increase, though lower than in previous years’, far outpaced
          wage growth and overall inflation and marked the continuation of a trend
          that in just a few years has dramatically shifted healthcare costs to
          workers.

          This is what happens when the government gets involved in unconstitutional matters: http://beforeitsnews.com/opinion-conservative/2014/02/state-insurance-exchanges-may-be-going-bankrupt-2805564.html

          • Thomas Mohr

            Let me lecture you, Ronnyboy. I am from Austria, Europe. Here we have a System like Obamacare, which you seem to despise. Result: Half the costs, 2 years higher life expectancy.

            • AutismDadd

              2 years? Hardly a ringing endorsement.

              • Thomas Mohr

                Then maybe this sounds a bit better: Place according to life expectancy ranking: Austria 22, USA 43.

                • AutismDadd

                  So? Every country has a number.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    So you also do not know the correlation between life expectancy and the quality of a medical system in developed countreis.

                  • AutismDadd

                    I know how to spell countries Mr 25 years of cancer research

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Nice try. Well, I speak German (mothertongue), English and Spanish fluently and I understand French, Dutch, Italian and Latin to a certain extent. What is your second language – if you have one ? Oder ist er einer dieser monolingualen Amerikaner ?

                  • AutismDadd

                    Aren’t you special

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    In anderen Worten, er spricht keine Fremdsprache.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Whoop-dee-do

                  • AutismDadd

                    Been reading Mein Kampf again?

                  • Petticoat Philosopher

                    Dude, I’m on your side about science but picking on Americans because they’re not multi-lingual is some elitist and classist crap. Not as many Americans have access to good-quality foreign language instruction. That is a privilege. Not as many Americans have access to immersion situations because a) we live on a continent that is dominated by only a few languages and English is number one–unlike Europe which is a collection of mostly small countries where many languages are spoken and where travel is easy and b) many of us cannot afford to travel off that continent. We often have to spend our money on things that you get to take for granted, like education and healthcare. Most of get almost no vacation time, if any at all.. And those of us who havd the good fortune of some disposable income and time for traveling often have to spend it domestically because our families are often far-flung across a huge country. I have exactly one relative that lives relatively close to me (a few hours by bus or car). Otherwise, it’s days of driving or expensive flights. If you had to choose between spending limited time and money resources on vacations abroad or on seeing your loved ones in the same country, hundreds of miles away, for holidays or when they are sick or dying, what would be your choice?

                    Also, what you’re saying about Americans being monolingual isn’t even entirely true. This attitude tends to completely ignore immigrant and second or third generation Americans who are multi-lingual because their families have mother tongues besides English. Most of the kids I work with as a social worker in Chicago are multi-lingual and they are definitely American. When I hear Europeans talk about dumb, unsophisticated Americans who only speak English, I often hear “The stereotypical white middle Americans whose numbers are dwindling but who conveniently fit my pre-conceived notions about what Americans are, are insufficiently Eurocentric.” It’s not an attractive attitude.

                    I say this as an American who grew up in a relatively recently emigrated European family–let’s just say that my kind was not terribly welcome in Europe and my grandmother, one of the only survivors of her family, ended up in the US. I can’t speak German like my mom’s family can, though I could pick up enough from your simple sentences here. (I’m constantly trying to get my Spanish better because it’s good for work–that’s the other thing. People tend to learn languages when it is necessary to do so because it’s a big commitment.) I’ve lived in two European countries and have had the good fortune to be able to travel a lot more than many Americans–I am in Europe as I write this comment, though it’s an English-speaking country–Ireland. So I’m not coming from a place of personal defensiveness here. I’m pointing out that when Europeans laugh at Americans for not being cosmopolitan and multi-lingual, what they are often actually doing is laughing at people for being less fortunate–poorer, overworked, and less supported by their society. That is not very kind and I’m surprised how few Europeans who engage in this kind of shaming connect the dots. Though perhaps I shouldn’t be. People are often blind to their own privilege and blame those who lack it.

                    So…congratulations. You are an enormously educated individual from a relatively wealthy EU country. You’re one of the luckiest people in the world. I find myself a bit confused by how dedicated you seem to ridiculing people who clearly are out of their depth with you and lack the education to recognize that they are making fools of themselves for your apparent amusement. At some point it just seems mean-spirited. It’s certainly pretty clearly not intended to educate or enlighten.

                    I thank you very earnestly for your contributions to scientific knowledge but I really question your approach in these discussions. Lately in particular, they seem to be edging close to cruelty. I hope that is not your intent.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    I am sorry that this offended you a bit, but this guy tried to show his superiority by complaining about a typo. Admitted, my response was hard handed, but I think this is the only way such people learn at least a little bit. However, increased learning about foreign languages and cultures would probably easen US-centricity a bit which will become a real threat should Trump become president.

                  • AutismDadd

                    snicker

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Maybe a quick note on the less fortunate lacking education. Half of my family are farmers and craftsmen. Even if they would not be family I would never reproach them with their lack of a university degree. If they are ignorant of a subject they need, they educate themselves, critically and correctly. They are never proud of their ignorance. With Ron Roy things are very different. From his statements I think he is fully aware that he lacks proper education but is *proud* of that fact. That is not a less fortunate lacking education, but somebody rejecting it. He spreads hypotheses that are potentially dangerous to others while managing to keep a pseudoscientific cloak. I really cherish people wanting to educate themselves, but I can not stand ignorant people who are proud of their ignorance, especially when it comes to science in general and especially to spreading false medical theories that could have severe consequences.

                  • David

                    Well said

                  • AutismDadd

                    He’s a facist

                  • AutismDadd

                    Anyone not agreeing with you then is ignorant. Anyone not speaking several languages is ignorant. Got it Mr Perfect

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    You have *repeatedly* been challenged to provide evidence (beyond shoddy studies) to prove your point. You haven’t. Moreover you refuse to alter your point of view, therefore the same that applies to Ron applies to you.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Yea I know…I’m ignorant

                  • AutismDadd

                    Shouldn’t you be WORKING instead of shilling on Discus? I’m not fooled by your typical, predictable shill responses that we have read for years on this site. Just another puppet account.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Instead guys like David offer shoddy studies but that’s OK?

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    You never offered *any* study, just stupid one-liners. Additionally you have proven that the concept of time-zones seems to be alien to you.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Put that on my Tombstone

                  • AutismDadd

                    (beyond shoddy studies) Odd you say below I have not offered any studies. Care to apologize?

                  • AutismDadd

                    He’s quite a facist

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Let me explain something to you. One is entitled to his/her own opinion, but not to her own facts. Spreading lies is *not* free speech. So where are your data to support your claims ? This is the second challenge, you haven’t produced anything else than meaningless one-liners.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Calling my one-liners meaningless is an insult. My observations are not only accurate they are fact based. I read the rubbish science addicts and fools post and I provide an alternative view or comment. Maybe in Austria you have no political humor and no sense of right or wrong, but we do. Maybe Austria should invade the USA and teach us your ways.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    You had several times the choice between presenting your “facts” or being called an idiot. You have chosen at least two times the second variant. Do you know why ? I think you know exactly that upon presenting your “facts” you will be lampooned by people who know science.

                  • AutismDadd

                    I better get me sum variants then chief, don’t want no lampooning

                  • David

                    It is great to have such useless advocates as yourself for the anti vaccine cause. You will never be allowed any position of influence as you will always be ignored as an uneducated and illogical mouthpiece.
                    Your persistent display of ignorance will be very useful in pushing a vaccine hesitant parent to vaccinate.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Too bad your opinion is as worthless as a lab rat’s excrement

                  • AutismDadd

                    Too bad your opinion is as worthless as a lab rat’s excrement

                  • Ron Roy

                    Your 100% wrong as usual it’s because of people like AutismDadd that people are waking up and seeing the harm caused by vaccines. I personally am responsible for saving hundreds of babies from the horrors of vaccines.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Advised or better scared by the village idiot with no idea how medicne works or how to assess the safety of something. I hope you get one day sued if one of these babies dies from a preventable disease. Sued to the point that even your heirs have to pay.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Sue me lol. I’ve covered all my bases on that a long time ago. And besides all I do is show them the information and have them contact people, who already had made the mistake of vaccinating, that have vaccine damaged children and animals.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    I will not sue you, but I hope one of your victims does.

                  • Ron Roy

                    It will never happen. I’ve been doing this for longer than I can remember. The only thing a lawyer would get out of suing me is practice.

                  • David

                    Do you have a little kiosk on the side of the road?

                  • Ron Roy

                    OMG how did you find that out? lol

                  • AutismDadd

                    Hardly Manuel

                  • David

                    According to Ron Roy’s logic, you must be a terribly unhealthy father. If you had a good diet then your child would be strong and would be able to overcome the evils of vaccines. Ron says good nutrition can fight anything. Then your son would not have got autism.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Take that up with Ron boy

                  • David

                    According to Ron Roy’s logic, you must be a terribly unhealthy father. If you had a good diet then your child would be strong and would be able to overcome the evils of vaccines. Ron says good nutrition can fight anything. Then your son would not have got autism.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Prove its the medical system that affects life expectancy then.

                  • Marcel

                    While the correlation is well established, the outlier is the U.S. I believe a strong case could be made for free trade agreements which corporations used to manufacture products overseas at less cost, thereby reducing wages and jobs in the U.S. and creating a highly imbalanced distribution of wealth and resulting health. Check this out: https://ourworldindata.org/the-link-between-life-expectancy-and-health-spending-us-focus

                  • AutismDadd

                    who cares?

                  • Marcel

                    While the correlation is well established, the outlier is the U.S. I believe a strong case could be made for free trade agreements which corporations used to manufacture products overseas at less cost, thereby reducing wages and jobs in the U.S. and creating a highly imbalanced distribution of wealth and resulting health. Check this out: https://ourworldindata.org/the-link-between-life-expectancy-and-health-spending-us-focus

                  • Marcel
                  • AutismDadd

                    Not a bad read, but leaves much to be said about the overall details of the study. For example homicide and accidental death shouldn’t be included. A narrow definition regarding healthcare only should be used and deaths should be only from forms of illness, not old age.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Not a bad read, but leaves much to be said about the overall details of the study. For example homicide and accidental death shouldn’t be included. A narrow definition regarding healthcare only should be used and deaths should be only from forms of illness, not old age.

                  • Marcel

                    When medical care is applied in cases of homicide and accidental death in sometimes successful efforts to save lives, it makes a difference. But the topic here is the ethics or lack thereof of naturopaths in selling products at their place of practice; not vaccines.

                  • AutismDadd

                    But many have compared naturopathic business to Big Pharma and that has led us to vaccines causing maiming and deaths, so strictly staying on topic would alter and prevent discourse.

                  • AutismDadd

                    But many have compared naturopathic business to Big Pharma and that has led us to vaccines causing maiming and deaths, so strictly staying on topic would alter and prevent discourse.

                  • Marcel

                    When medical care is applied in cases of homicide and accidental death in sometimes successful efforts to save lives, it makes a difference. But the topic here is the ethics or lack thereof of naturopaths in selling products at their place of practice; not vaccines.

                  • Marcel
                  • Ron Roy

                    So that would mean 18 countries have better medical care than your own?

                  • Ron Roy

                    So that would mean 18 countries have better medical care than your own?

                  • AutismDadd

                    Crapola. Not all life expectancy is due to the medical system. More bullshit from Austria

                • Ron Roy

                  That’s because the US’s infant mortality rate ( 6.1 per 1000 ) is much higher than Austria’s ( 3.9 per 1000 ). Gee I wonder if being one of the most vaccinated countries has anything to do with that?

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Ronnyboy, let me lecture you: Austrians have almost as many vaccinations as Americans. Aside that, your inferior edcation and unwillingness to correct that precludes you from being in a position to assess that.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Tommyboy, let me lecture you: Austrians don’t get as many vaccinations as Americans. Aside that, your miseducation and tunnel vision precludes you from being in a position to assess anything scientific.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Ronnyboy, let me lecture you: Austrians have almost as many vaccinations as Americans. Aside that, your inferior edcation and unwillingness to correct that precludes you from being in a position to assess that.

                  • AutismDadd

                    That’s an extremely good point. But it may be that the American system simply sucks the life out of its citizens with high cost but poorly effective medical treatments they learned from Austria

                  • Jonathan Graham

                    …and Canada gets as many vaccinations as the US or more. Our rate is about 4 per 1000. So as usual Ron Roy’s theory doesn’t hold up in the face of actual data.

                    (Not to mention that different countries *count* infant mortality differently – which you would know if you knew anything)

                  • Jonathan Graham

                    …and Canada gets as many vaccinations as the US or more. Our rate is about 4 per 1000. So as usual Ron Roy’s theory doesn’t hold up in the face of actual data.

                    (Not to mention that different countries *count* infant mortality differently – which you would know if you knew anything)

                  • Sonja Henie

                    To add-

                    1. The US and Canada both use the same definition of “live birth” so their rates can be directly compared. I don’t know about Austria, a country of all of 8 million people, about the same size as the US state of Virginia.
                    2. The US’ IMR has been steadily dropping as the number of immunizations and the immunization rate has increased.

                  • Sonja Henie

                    To add-

                    1. The US and Canada both use the same definition of “live birth” so their rates can be directly compared. I don’t know about Austria, a country of all of 8 million people, about the same size as the US state of Virginia.
                    2. The US’ IMR has been steadily dropping as the number of immunizations and the immunization rate has increased.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Your math is slipping( as usual in your favor ) you forgot the .9. Canada’s infant mortality rate is 4.9 and it ranks 9th, in infant mortality, among 37 developed countries.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Ronnyboy, apparently you need another lecture: *about* 4 in 1000 means approximately 4 in 1000 which is good enough. However, your qualities in looking something up will not rescue you. As usual you do not respond to the main argument. Do you know why ? Because you do not have the knowledge to do so.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Gee Johnny would have usually made a big deal out of .9. Maybe that’s why he let you comment.

                  • Jonathan Graham

                    you forgot the .9.

                    Nope. Just used a different source. I used an inter-agency aggregate value. http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.DYN.IMRT.IN

                    Of course you seem to be trying to distract from the fact that your argument is now worth nothing. 🙂

                  • AutismDadd

                    That’s data, printing 4 per 1000?

                  • Jonathan Graham

                    More so than Ron printing 6.1 per 1000 without a source. I already provided the reference for the figure I used. Read. Think. Post. Try it sometime. 🙂

                  • Ron Roy
                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Ronnyboy, do you know what the infant mortality rate is ? Do you know how many vaccinations a child gets within this period ? Do you know how this compares to vaccine schedules in other countries ? You really have shot yourself in the knee. In both knees.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Yes but you don’t. You seem to have a fixation on knees? Gorski syndrome perhaps?

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Since you do not give the definition or how many doses are given during this time period I assume you have no clue – as usual.

                  • Ron Roy

                    The clueless telling me I have no clue.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    One last time. what exactly is the infant mortality rate and how many shots do infants receive during that period ? Data on table or be called an idiot.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Look at who’s calling me an idiot. A pseudo scientist.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    In other words you have NO data to back up your claims. Dismissed.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Do you know how many vaccinations a child gets? Yep enough to kill or make them sick for the rest of their lives.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    That is not the question Ronnyboy. Once again, clearly: Give the definition of infant mortality rate and state how many vaccinations are received during that time.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    That is not the question Ronnyboy. Once again, clearly: Give the definition of infant mortality rate and state how many vaccinations are received during that time.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Do you know how many vaccinations a child gets? Yep enough to kill or make them sick for the rest of their lives.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Yes I know what the infant mortality is. The number of vaccines or the dose has different effects on different people. Everyone’s immune system is different so some people are more susceptible to some vaccines than others. Even though the schedule may be the same in some countries the outcomes may vary. Gee for a scientist you sure don’t know much about vaccines do you?

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Don’t lay a smokescreen. What is the definition of infant mortality rate and how many shots does an infant get ? State clearly or be called an idiot. Last chance.

                  • Jonathan Graham

                    Still a single-source and your argument about IM is still blown away.

                  • Ron Roy

                    I see as usual when the CDC agrees with you it’s a good source but when it doesn’t it’s ONLY a single source. Instead of using your name why don’t you use a name I like to apply to another shill: TWISTY. You like to twist the facts so much that I think it would be an appropriate name.

                  • David

                    Now that is the pot calling the kettle black!!! What is your opinion again on the CDC and vaccines?

                  • Ron Roy

                    How is that calling the kettle black? The CDC, like all other alphabet soup government agencies, is nothing more than an enforcement arm of the pharmaceutical industry.

                  • David

                    Why is the CDC a good source for data when it agrees with what you believe in, but a bad source for data when it disagrees (ie vaccines and vaccine preventable diseases)

                  • Ron Roy

                    I could ask you the same question.

                  • David

                    I have not questioned the CDC data. So, why are you asking me that question

                  • Jonathan Graham

                    I see as usual when the CDC agrees with you it’s a good source but when it doesn’t it’s ONLY a single source.

                    Nope. You claimed that my figure was wrong. Mine was correct in the context of the data source I used – so your assertion was wrong. So as usual there’s no twisting of anything. You are just wrong.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Twisty I wasn’t wrong. If anyone was wrong it was by source the CDC. Take it up with that agency.

                  • Jonathan Graham

                    I wasn’t wrong.

                    Yes you were. You claimed that my figure was wrong. I can quote you if you like. Your claim is incorrect. I simply used a different source for the figures.

                    If anyone was wrong it was by source the CDC.

                    Nope. The CDC figures are in line with the CDC’s assumptions. My figures are in-line with my sources assumptions. The only person who is wrong is someone claiming that the CDC figures are right and the aggregate figures are wrong. Which is…oh hey…you! 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂

                  • Jonathan Graham

                    I wasn’t wrong.

                    Yes you were. You claimed that my figure was wrong. I can quote you if you like. Your claim is incorrect. I simply used a different source for the figures.

                    If anyone was wrong it was by source the CDC.

                    Nope. The CDC figures are in line with the CDC’s assumptions. My figures are in-line with my sources assumptions. The only person who is wrong is someone claiming that the CDC figures are right and the aggregate figures are wrong. Which is…oh hey…you! 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂

                  • Ron Roy

                    As one of your cohorts like to say: ” BULLSHIT.”

                  • Jonathan Graham

                    Nope. It’s right here:

                    you forgot the .9. Canada’s infant mortality rate is 4.9

                    I didn’t forget anything. It’s just the source differs. So, again you were wrong and there’s the quote. 🙂

                  • Ron Roy

                    Funny the CDC’s figures are the same as yours as far as the IM in the US???

                  • Jonathan Graham

                    Please decide if you’re making a statement or asking a question before you start typing.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Ok I guess you so called expertise in math didn’t help in figuring out that it was a statement and a question so I’ll rephrase it. You claim your source was better than mine yet my source agreed with yours on the IM for the USA so why would your source be more accurate than mine?

                  • Ron Roy

                    Ok I guess you so called expertise in math didn’t help in figuring out that it was a statement and a question so I’ll rephrase it. You claim your source was better than mine yet my source agreed with yours on the IM for the USA so why would your source be more accurate than mine?

                  • Jonathan Graham

                    didn’t help in figuring out that it was a statement and a question

                    You really want me to start showing you how to write sentences too?

                    You claim your source was better than mine

                    Nope. You claimed that my number was incorrect. Which is isn’t. So your assertion is incorrect. Just like I’ve been saying.

                    yet my source agreed with yours on the IM for the USA so why would your source be more accurate than mine?

                    So your question is: How is it possible for there to be overlap between two datasets of differing accuracy? This seems pretty obvious – are you SURE you can’t figure this out on your own?

                  • Jonathan Graham

                    didn’t help in figuring out that it was a statement and a question

                    You really want me to start showing you how to write sentences too?

                    You claim your source was better than mine

                    Nope. You claimed that my number was incorrect. Which is isn’t. So your assertion is incorrect. Just like I’ve been saying.

                    yet my source agreed with yours on the IM for the USA so why would your source be more accurate than mine?

                    So your question is: How is it possible for there to be overlap between two datasets of differing accuracy? This seems pretty obvious – are you SURE you can’t figure this out on your own?

                  • Ron Roy

                    I see as usual when the CDC agrees with you it’s a good source but when it doesn’t it’s ONLY a single source. Instead of using your name why don’t you use a name I like to apply to another shill: TWISTY. You like to twist the facts so much that I think it would be an appropriate name.

                  • David

                    Ha ha. Again referencing the cdc. Now for infant mortality and gun deaths.
                    However all their data on vaccines is just cheating lies, right ron

                  • Ron Roy

                    You’ll notice the CDC doesn’t say the child mortality rate is caused mostly by vaccines.

                  • David

                    And why would it? How any confirmed deaths from vaccines have their been –close to zero. How many confirmed measles deaths per year in infants?–120000

                  • AutismDadd

                    That’s data, printing 4 per 1000?

                  • JGC

                    It doesn’t, Ron. Differences in infant mortality rates across developed countries like Austria and the US are in large part an artifact resulting from the countries use different criteria when calculating infant mortality–e.g., deaths that in the US would be counted as infant mortality in other developed countries are considered to represent stillbirths.

                    It makes infant mortality rates an inappropriate metric when comparing different national health care systems.

                • Ron Roy

                  That’s because the US’s infant mortality rate ( 6.1 per 1000 ) is much higher than Austria’s ( 3.9 per 1000 ). Gee I wonder if being one of the most vaccinated countries has anything to do with that?

              • David

                Again, you are showing your ignorance. 2 years is a lot statistically.

                • David

                  And half the cost is incredibly impressive.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    In 2014 we had a per capita health expediture of roughly USD 5.500.– in comparison to the US with ~ USD 9.400.–. However, the Austrian system could be more efficient since we have a very high hospital density.

                  • David

                    Also may be confounded by a better social net, less IV drug users and less violent crime. I am guessing
                    The US system has always been very heavy on diagnostic testing which increases cost

                  • AutismDadd

                    Why include IV drug use and violent crime into health costs? Do you include death from old age too?

                  • David

                    I have to spell everything out for you:
                    Social net—social services, basic hygiene and shelter, better psychiatric care, money for food. —all will dec health care costs
                    IV drug use–more Hiv/hepatitis. Way more hospital admissions for endocarditis, overdose etc—all inc cost of health care
                    Violent crime–inc cost of health care

                    These would all be confounding factors in a comparison of US versus Austrian health care
                    Even controlling for these confounders, US health care would still be the most expensive

                  • AutismDadd

                    So because of a higher level of scumbags stupid enough to use IV drugs and smokers committing slow suicide or anything that doesn’t have to happen but only happen because humans are stupid? That pushes Healthcare cost up alright, so do gun and alcohol sales. How about that. The definition of Health care should be narrowed for comparison, not bloated by the lunatic fringe of stupid human tricks.

                  • David

                    Guess what? You are actually learning whether you like it or not. That is the whole point of statistics such that one can tease out confounding factors such that one can ascertain if there is a true difference between two populations.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Not David. You may want to think I’m dumb, but that’s your folly. If you get my points about comparison, most of what was discussed doesn’t pan out. And any study attempting to include too much or compares a large aggressive nation with a small passive nation is going to show differences, but not in a meaningful way, just a distorted way

                  • David

                    You have no clue what you are even arguing about? Please tell me what you are trying to say. Are you trying to say that the life span in the USA is longer with lesser healthcare expenditures?
                    And yes I do think you are dumb, as you do not have the ability to understand the simplest of study designs.
                    You actually think you are adding to the conversation when you are trying to explain how to compare groups…yet in your ignorance, what you fail to realize, is that is the whole power of statistical methods.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Yeah blah blah. Its you who has tunnel vision and has to act zombie like in the pursuit of science. I don’t

                  • AutismDadd

                    Yeah blah blah. Its you who has tunnel vision and has to act zombie like in the pursuit of science. I don’t

                  • AutismDadd

                    Feel better now little man?

                  • Boris Ogon

                    You may want to think I’m dumb

                    This is like some sort of strange inversion of the Sears Wish Book.

                  • AutismDadd

                    “duh moment”

                  • AutismDadd

                    “duh moment”

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    We do not think you are dumb, we know that as a fact. Fact is that the entire European Union has lower health care costs and a higher life expectancy, and the reason for this is precisely the US health care system

                  • AutismDadd

                    That’s a pretty disjointed response.

                  • AutismDadd

                    That’s a pretty disjointed response.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Yea square head that’s what I was saying. USA Healthcare involves more than a smaller less violent nation, so comparisons will be skewed, so how meaningful is that, when it is obvious. If you want to compare them narrow the focus, it will still give meaningful information if you know what you want to find.

                  • Boris Ogon

                    Why include IV drug use and violent crime into health costs? Do you include death from old age too?

                    *blink*

                  • AutismDadd

                    “meaningless”

                  • AutismDadd

                    And this means what? Translation please

                  • David

                    Austria achieves better health indicators and life span with half the expenditure. This is an impressive accomplishment.
                    Do you have a problem with that assessment. Am I a shill for Austrian healthcare?

                  • AutismDadd

                    Sounds too simplistic when you don’t provide detail. Is Austria hiring shills at the moment? Seems there are a glut of them here. Not effective but willing to lie for $$. All Brian Deer wanabee’s

                  • AutismDadd

                    Austria is both more civil (don’t count T Mohr) and likely eat far better that those who waddle up to trough out at McDonalds, so no surprise they live longer

                  • David

                    I’m surprised you actually know where Austria is located. Have you been there in that you say it is “more civil”

                  • AutismDadd

                    Almost ANY country is more civil that the USA

                  • AutismDadd

                    Austria is both more civil (don’t count T Mohr) and likely eat far better that those who waddle up to trough out at McDonalds, so no surprise they live longer

                  • AutismDadd

                    Lets throw a party

                  • David

                    What country are you from

                  • AutismDadd

                    Austria

                • AutismDadd

                  Whoa well EXCUUUUUSE ME

              • Boris Ogon

                2 years? Hardly a ringing endorsement.

                How, precisely, do you value this item? How do you think, say, your personal Gofundme campaign would pan out by comparison? Would you point to your history of typing out fart noises in lieu of thought to encourage donors?

                • AutismDadd

                  Well no one has ever asked me before. I’ll consult my lawyer before replying.

                • AutismDadd

                  Well no one has ever asked me before. I’ll consult my lawyer before replying.

            • Jonathan Graham

              …as has been pointed out to Ron Roy several times. Canada has an even more socialized medical system than Obamacare. We are a single-payer system. Like Austria we have lower costs per capita than the US and longer life expectancy (3 years) than the US. Our vaccination schedule is equal to or greater than that of the US (it depends on the province).

            • Jonathan Graham

              …as has been pointed out to Ron Roy several times. Canada has an even more socialized medical system than Obamacare. We are a single-payer system. Like Austria we have lower costs per capita than the US and longer life expectancy (3 years) than the US. Our vaccination schedule is equal to or greater than that of the US (it depends on the province).

              • Ron Roy

                The reason for the lower healthcare costs in Canada has nothing to do with the quality of the care it’s the difference in administrative costs. In the US it’s 25% in Canada it’s 12%. These costs are because of government involvement in our medical care.

                • Thomas Mohr

                  Oh my God. Canada = state run healthcare system. Austria = quasi state run health care system. EU = state run health care systems and mixed models. US = largely privately run health care system. US health care costs: far more than everybody else. On one count you are correct. A major driver are administrative costs, however they are due to the private nature of the US healthcare system and NOT the other way round. This is the living proof that a brain is not necessary to survive.

                • Thomas Mohr

                  Oh my God. Canada = state run healthcare system. Austria = quasi state run health care system. EU = state run health care systems and mixed models. US = largely privately run health care system. US health care costs: far more than everybody else. On one count you are correct. A major driver are administrative costs, however they are due to the private nature of the US healthcare system and NOT the other way round. This is the living proof that a brain is not necessary to survive.

                  • AutismDadd

                    What a stool sample.

                  • AutismDadd

                    What a stool sample.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Tommy do have to practice at being ignorant or does it come naturally? It’s the government mandated paperwork / administrative costs that’s makes the US’s healthcare cost higher than in countries where ALL healthcare is paid by the government / taxpayer. All this paperwork is because our government’s involvement with a big portion (medicare and medicaid ) of healthcare.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Let me explain something to you, Ronnyboy. of the USD 4000 something we have 12% is administration overhead, i.o.w. USD 480. the US has a 25% administration overhead which amounts to roughly USD 2300. This is NOT government mandated paperwork, that is advertising, PR, etc. etc. Plus the US has one of the highest proces for drugs because health care insurances are – due to their lack of size and concurrence – unable to force lower prices as f.i. Canada does very successfully. Ronnyboy, once again, you are talking here with scientists in the medical field, doctors etc. who know their stuff and have an adequate education.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Not government mandated paperwork. I’ll have to tell a friend of mine who works at the local hospital she was wrong when she told me that. Thanks I’ll be sure to relay that info. She’ll be glad to hear that.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Before you look like a fool in front of your friend, reread my post.

                  • Ron Roy

                    I have I stand by what I said.

                  • AutismDadd

                    He was born that way…lets have a Tommyboy Parade

                • Jonathan Graham

                  has nothing to do with the quality of the care

                  Actually yes, there is one thing that has to do with the quality of the care. That Canadian care can’t be significantly worse than American care.

                  In the US it’s 25% in Canada it’s 12%.

                  Yes, more socialized systems have efficiencies over your mandatory employer insurance system. When you look at more than just hospital management the difference can be a factor of three. We also negotiate as a country on the pricing for many health products. Which doesn’t just reduce the cost of administration but also reduces the cost of the product.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Where’s your data Hammyboy?

                  • Jonathan Graham

                    Which specific thing do you want referenced?

                  • AutismDadd

                    Anything and everything you claim. Otherwise it has zero credibility.

                  • Jonathan Graham

                    Pick one thing.

                  • Ron Roy

                    I have to agree that prescription medications are cheaper in Canada however a socialized system isn’t necessary in order to lower costs. Our government would never force pharmaceutical companies to lower the costs of drugs even under a socialized system because our politicians, not to mention the CDC,NIH the FDA etc.are bought and paid for by the drug industry. In a truly free market economy the insurance companies could force the issue by paying for the lowest priced drugs. Drug companies would then compete against each other by lowering their prices.

                  • Jonathan Graham

                    I have to agree that prescription medications are cheaper in Canada

                    Except that’s something that is not socialized. Things like vaccinations, artificial hips, diagnostics, etc…

                    however a socialized system isn’t necessary in order to lower costs.

                    Glad to see that you finally realize that you don’t have a socialized system by any useful definition.

                    Drug companies would then compete against each other by lowering their prices.

                    Well a) Not every drug company has the same products. It’s simply not good business to attempt to compete in every market. So in many, many cases there is nobody to compete against. b) Drug companies already do this with generics. So your idea doesn’t lower prices any further.

                    However with say artificial hips we can negotiate at the provincial or national level. Doing something the insurance companies can’t – use greater economies of scale and have better information about demand since our population base doesn’t shift.

                  • Ron Roy

                    In a truly free market economy artificial hips would probably not be needed because doctors would be free to practice healthcare instead of disease care.

                  • Jonathan Graham

                    Nice attempt to deflect from the fact you are, as is almost always the case wrong. 🙂 Prescription drugs aren’t socialized. Single-payers have better purchasing power.

                  • Ron Roy

                    In a truly free market economy artificial hips would probably not be needed because doctors would be free to practice healthcare instead of disease care.

                  • David

                    New trend in Canada is to approach companies with take it or leave it offers. Ie. Go to the artificial hip manufacturers and say, we are willing to pay a 100 dollars for an artificial hip and nothing more. Then most companies give in and supply the product at this cheaper price to stay competitive. Of course the risk is that all the companies could say no.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Ronnyboy, do you have *any* idea how drug development and sale works ? Other companies competing, what a joke. Drugs are not cars or household items. Once a company has developed a drug at the costs of a three digit million Euro figure, it PATENTS it which means they have a monopoly on the drug for the next 25 years and can charge almost anything they want. You know really nothing, Ronnyboy.

                  • Ron Roy

                    It’s very easy to go around patents. Simply altering anything slightly will allow a business or individual to market something similar to the one patented.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    You truly have no idea about patents or drugs. If you “alter” a drug you can not sell it anymore. You have to repeat the entire testing – from cell culture to clinical studies. Aside that, a patent covers whole drug classes so slight alteration is bogus.
                    As I said, drugs are not cars or household items. Aside that have you ever read a drug patent ? Have you even seen one ? I have. Several. In fact I even HAVE some patents. I know exactly how that works, you, lacking proper education, apparently not.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Repeat the entire testing; definition: Bribe the FDA into accepting a new” tested ” drug.

                  • AutismDadd

                    What did you patent Austrian Bull Crap?

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Let me explain something to you. I have patents. I do innovation. You have none. You do NOT innovate.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Yea and I have a Gold record. See how easy it is to spread bull crap?

                  • AutismDadd

                    So you can read minds and tell people things you don’t know? And you claim to see ghosts maybe?

                • David

                  But Canada is 100 percent government run health care….

                  • Ron Roy

                    Because of our government being involved in our healthcare with Medicare and Medicaid ALL healthcare agencies have to follow the same rules and regulations as though we had the same system as Canada.

                  • David

                    What is wrong with Canada’s health system. All our health indicators are better than the USA

                  • AutismDadd

                    Its government funded not government run…gawd

                  • David

                    Government funded and government run….you clown

                  • AutismDadd

                    Wrong, partially but not totally….gawd!

                  • David Wright

                    Haha…you are wrong again. Give up.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Sponge Blob you have zero credibility

                  • AutismDadd

                    Sponge Blob you have zero credibility

                  • AutismDadd

                    Shill with no profile…no surprise

                  • David Wright

                    Haha…you are wrong again. Give up.

                  • David

                    Government funded and government run….you clown

                • AutismDadd

                  Hammy as usual wants to narrow his focus (he’s narrow minded) and argue against your overall position with his narrow position. He does it all the time. His general claims about Canadian Healthcare are meaningless. Mr data/ stats inst providing any…notice that?

              • Ron Roy

                Father and son having a discussion.

                • Jonathan Graham

                  …about how we kicked your ass.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Hammy must be into the bottles of courage

                  • AutismDadd

                    Hammy must be into the bottles of courage

                  • Jonathan Graham

                    It’s pretty clear that the IM argument doesn’t hold water.

                  • Ron Roy

                    In your dreams!

                  • Jonathan Graham

                    Your IM argument has been shown to be incorrect. Ergo your ass is kicked.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Wrong. Johnny wake up you’re dreaming again.

                  • Jonathan Graham

                    Sorry, when you compare countries with the same definition of live birth and different vaccination rates you don’t see the correlation you claim. Therefore you are wrong. 🙂

                  • Ron Roy

                    Vaccines effect people / babies differently so there will be variation in deaths vs. vaccines.

                  • Jonathan Graham

                    Vaccines effect people

                    In no way do they do this ever. You are absolutely entirely and utterly wrong. 🙂

                    Vaccines effect people / babies differently so there will be variation in deaths vs. vaccines.

                    In other words you are claiming that an environment where vaccines cause IM looks no different than an environment where they don’t.

                    So you have agreed that IM says nothing. Again, your argument is false…and you know it. 🙂

                  • Ron Roy

                    No I’m saying that IM due to vaccines will vary not just because of vaccination rates but because of the differences in everyone’s susceptibility to the toxins in those vaccines. Twisty you knew what I meant your not stupid just corrupt.

                  • Jonathan Graham

                    IM due to vaccines will vary not just because of vaccination rates but because of the differences in everyone’s susceptibility to the toxins in those vaccines

                    In other words your hypothesis expects countries with the same or more vaccinations and lower IM. Right? Exactly what you expect to see where there is no correlation between IM and vaccination.

                    Anytime you want to admit you’re done. I’m happy to let you up off the mat.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Johnny if there was a mat involved I’d have you saying uncle before you even knew what happened. Everyone’s immune system is different some are more susceptible to pathogenic germs, poisons. drugs and vaccines. One size does not fit all. Some people smoke all their lives and stay healthy others develop emphysema, cancer, heart disease etc. I had a friend who drank a fifth of Jack Daniels everyday for years yet his doctor told him his liver was ok. His pancreas was shot but his liver was normal. Most people would have had liver damage.

                  • David

                    Genetic susceptibility plays a huge roll in this. What happened to your previous theory that all you need is good diet and it cures all. You are contradicting yourself!
                    By the way, you are very cocky for a 71 year old man…

                  • AutismDadd

                    EW a bromance

                  • Ron Roy

                    I’m only cocky with vaccine shills. However I can back up my mouth. I cut and split at least eight cords of firewood every year, I have a huge 30 x 80 organic garden that I make even bigger every year, I’ve worked out all my life and although I stopped doing regular squats last year I still work my legs and back very hard. I have a high center of gravity which made squats a pain in the ass. I still did full reps in the squat with 275 the last time I did them. I’ve always love to box, and grapple with the only rules being no scratching, biting and the family jewels were off limits. Yes I am cocky and I can hold my own , in a scrap , with weightlifters less than half my age. What did Johnny say about a mat?

                  • David Wright

                    Oh ronnyboy, do you need a nap? I sense a temper tantrum.
                    Your insecurities are getting the best of you.

                  • David Wright

                    Oh ronnyboy, do you need a nap? I sense a temper tantrum.
                    Your insecurities are getting the best of you.

                  • Jonathan Graham

                    I’m only cocky with vaccine shills.

                    I think you mean your delusions of vaccine shills.

                    However I can back up my mouth

                    Not for anything that matters here.

                    the only rules being no scratching, biting and the family jewels were off limits.

                    Eyes, throat and knees are IN when you are practicing? Thanks for confirming that you are either full of it or your partners are taking it easy on you.

                    What did Johnny say about a mat?

                    That I’ve had you pinned to it for ages.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Oh big deal I forgot eyes. As for throat I believe ( correct me if I’m wrong but in order to choke someone into submission the throat is somehow involved. And how can an arm bar or knee locks be applied if knees and elbows were out of the picture. I’m waiting for an answer. Tommy is in for a surprise. 6 months 6 years and he still wouldn’t be ready.

                  • Jonathan Graham

                    Oh big deal I forgot eyes.

                    You forgot something that virtually nobody who fights regularly would forget.

                    if I’m wrong but in order to choke someone into submission the throat is somehow involved

                    Unified rules forbid over twenty-five kinds of approaches including:

                    – Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea
                    – Eye gouging of any kind

                    If you only fought with a small closed group with a consistent set of rules this error might be reasonable but you sure made it sound like you take all comers. Anyone who fights in an unfamiliar ring is going to lay down at least what I’ve outlined.

                    And how can an arm bar or knee locks be applied if knees and elbows were out of the picture.

                    Your confusing targeting knees with using your knees. In an armbar your knees are over the opponent. You are not targeting your opponents knees. Even in a kneebar where you actually are targeting the knee – your opponent can at least tap out when they’re in pain. However a kick, stomp and even a good elbow to the knee doesn’t give them that chance. Which is why in lots of friendly matches you will rule out targeting the knee because it can easily result in a permanent and debilitating injury. Speaking from having put one person in an ambulance without even trying in this respect.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Who said we followed any rules other than the ones I mentioned? It was submission grappling.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Who said we followed any rules other than the ones I mentioned? It was submission grappling.

                  • Jonathan Graham

                    Who said we followed any rules other than the ones I mentioned?

                    You did. You had to add eyes and if you didn’t have rules for the other things I mentioned then your friends were going easy on you.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Johnny stop trying to make mountains out of nothing. Obviously when participating in submission wrestling / grappling the object is to force you opponent to submit through the application of pain and only an overly extremely proud individual would suffer any tears or breaks by not submitting. In your case I would hope that you are an extremely proud individual.

                  • Jonathan Graham

                    trying to make mountains out of nothing.

                    So if someone heel stomps your knee on the ground. That’s just fine? Like I said it seems pretty obvious you’re lying about a number of things here.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Johnny again you’re talking out of you ass. In the original MMA competitions there were few rules and that’s why those bouts were illegal. ”However a kick, stomp and even a good elbow to the knee doesn’t give
                    them that chance. Which is why in lots of friendly matches you will
                    rule out targeting the knee because it can easily result in a permanent
                    and debilitating injury.” Did you miss the part about wrestling / grappling where strikes are not allowed? However I will reiterate in the original MMA fights they were very few rules and strikes to the knees were allowed, as they are today, and there were very few permanent injuries. I live in a town where brawling 30 or so years ago was common. There were no rules and I remember of only one person dying and that was from an infection due to a bite.

                  • Jonathan Graham

                    Did you miss the part about wrestling / grappling where strikes are not allowed?

                    Actually you said:

                    the only rules being no scratching, biting and the family jewels were off limits.

                    ROFL so when you said “the only rules” you meant there were actually enormous number of rules to keep people from hurting you.

                    Evidence that you’re backpedaling is your sudden concern for eyes. If you really meant from the very beginning that only grappling was allowed. Why do you care about eyes? Do people grapple your eye? Putting pressure on an eye is an eye strike.

                  • Jonathan Graham

                    I’m only cocky with vaccine shills.

                    I think you mean your delusions of vaccine shills.

                    However I can back up my mouth

                    Not for anything that matters here.

                    the only rules being no scratching, biting and the family jewels were off limits.

                    Eyes, throat and knees are IN when you are practicing? Thanks for confirming that you are either full of it or your partners are taking it easy on you.

                    What did Johnny say about a mat?

                    That I’ve had you pinned to it for ages.

                  • Ron Roy

                    I’m only cocky with vaccine shills. However I can back up my mouth. I cut and split at least eight cords of firewood every year, I have a huge 30 x 80 organic garden that I make even bigger every year, I’ve worked out all my life and although I stopped doing regular squats last year I still work my legs and back very hard. I have a high center of gravity which made squats a pain in the ass. I still did full reps in the squat with 275 the last time I did them. I’ve always love to box, and grapple with the only rules being no scratching, biting and the family jewels were off limits. Yes I am cocky and I can hold my own , in a scrap , with weightlifters less than half my age. What did Johnny say about a mat?

                  • Jonathan Graham

                    Everyone’s immune system is different some are more susceptible to pathogenic germs, poisons. drugs and vaccines.

                    So you expect to observe a wide degree of variability – exactly what you expect to see where vaccines aren’t a factor.

                    Anytime you want me to let you up. Let me know.

                  • Jonathan Graham

                    IM due to vaccines will vary not just because of vaccination rates but because of the differences in everyone’s susceptibility to the toxins in those vaccines

                    In other words your hypothesis expects countries with the same or more vaccinations and lower IM. Right? Exactly what you expect to see where there is no correlation between IM and vaccination.

                    Anytime you want to admit you’re done. I’m happy to let you up off the mat.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Vaccines effect people / babies differently so there will be variation in deaths vs. vaccines.

                  • Ron Roy

                    You fantasize a lot don’t you?

                  • Jonathan Graham

                    Apparently not as much as you do. 🙂 Your argument that IM positive correlates with vaccinations is a pretty good example of a fantasy of yours. 🙂

                  • Ron Roy

                    Wrong

                  • Jonathan Graham

                    Nope. Canada proves you wrong. Come back when you have some evidence which supports your point.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Wrong

                  • Ron Roy

                    Baby gets vaccinated mother just gets home with the baby he dies minutes later. According to your logic that baby would have died anyway. Come on level with me how much are they paying you to participate in this slaughter of babies.

                  • David

                    Do you have any examples of this happening? Documented case of baby dying after getting home from the office. Not in the middle of the night but on returning home from the doctor’s office after a vaccination?

                  • Ron Roy

                    Three I personally know of. Two of these cases were published in a local paper. I’ve also had two women tell me that their cats died in their arms at the vets office after being vaccinated.

                  • David

                    As you have been told a million times, your anecdotes mean nothing. I am published in the field of measles and found that the measles is a life saving vaccine. My statement is as useless as your anecdotes, except that i am a published authority and you are not. As we used to always say in public health shool, “unless you are God, you must bring data”

                  • David

                    Furthermore, your stories of sudden death from vaccines really makes very little scientific sense (but then again, you know nothing about science and the immune system). You should stick to your theories about diseases later in life.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Who prints your work Charmin?

                  • David

                    anaphylaxis is exceedingly rare …1/ 10 million.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Gee 3 babies within a population of 15 thousand people. 1/ 10 million my ass. If doctors were to report the truth that number would be much greater. Most CIDS cases are vaccine caused. I know you won’t look this up but others will: Look up ? search Doctor Archie Kalokerinos and his experience with SIDS among the Aborigines.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Data, Ronnyboy, where are your data or do you chose the idiot path – AGAIN ?

                  • https://www.hempista.com/cannabis-spa Hempista

                    I have anaphylaxis and carry epipens for food, drug and environmental allergies. I have some of the most rare allergies on the books. My immune system is literally a medical curiosity. And I wouldn’t trust anyone but the best medical minds to deal with it. I want to stay alive.

                  • David

                    anaphylaxis is exceedingly rare …1/ 10 million.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Ronnyboy, coincidence it NOT causation. You have NO proper education. You have NO proper knowledge of how vaccination or the immune system works. If ignorance would hurt they would be hearing your howling in Australia. What you are doing is a crime.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Ronnyboy, coincidence it NOT causation. You have NO proper education. You have NO proper knowledge of how vaccination or the immune system works. If ignorance would hurt they would be hearing your howling in Australia. What you are doing is a crime.

                  • Ron Roy

                    When that coincidence happens thousands of times it’s proof of causation. YOU have no proper knowledge of how the immune system works because of your miseducation. What you are doing is a crime a crime worthy of Josef Mengele. I will keep telling people about the horrors of vaccines until my dying day.

                  • Jonathan Graham

                    Baby gets vaccinated mother just gets home with the baby he dies minutes later. According to your logic that baby would have died anyway.

                    No, it’s that logic (and math) demand that some babies will die that way independent to the vaccination. Since I think logic and math are better ways determine true things from false things than talking to you. I am forced to listen to logic and math rather than you.

                    Come on level with me how much are they paying you to participate in this slaughter of babies.

                    I thought you were currently under the delusion that you knew what I do for a living? If so, then you must know what I’m getting paid.

                  • Ron Roy

                    I know what your regular job is and I know what people think of you. I’m just not sure as to who pays you for disputing anything good, healthy, organic, natural etc. I’m also not sure as to how you and your cohorts should be described. Help me here: Son’s and daughters of Satan / Son and daughters of Mengele or just plain sociopaths. I’m open to suggestions.

                  • Jonathan Graham

                    I know what your regular job is and I know what people think of you.

                    You certainly imagine that you do. Which I expect is the same as knowing something for certain in the mind of Ron Roy.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Let me lecture you, Ronnyboy. Coincidence is NOT causation. Write that down 100 times.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Let me lecture you Tommyboy. When something happens hundreds of times it’s not a coincidence it’s proof of cause and effect. . Now write that down1000 times.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Data on the table, Ronnyboy or be called an idiot.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Let me lecture you Tommyboy. When something happens hundreds of times it’s not a coincidence it’s proof of cause and effect. . Now write that down1000 times.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Thomas Mohr: leesen to me now un beleeve me laytar…I’m going to CLAP…pump you up!

                  • Ron Roy

                    Johnny you Tommy and all these other shills put together wouldn’t be able to kick anybody’s ass either verbally or physically so go back to sleep and keep dreaming.

                  • David

                    Ron ROY
                    How do you explain such outbreaks as the following
                    http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/

                    This outbreak of measles occurred in an unvaccinated religious group in BC. Measles is highly contagious, but no one who received the vaccine got measles? This group does come into contact with many other children and indeed 5 unvaccinated children outside this religious group got measles. However no vaccinated children outside this religious group got measles.

                    A total of 433 cases (325 confirmed and 108 probable) were identified. Rash onset ranged from February 22 to June 9, with 98% during March and April. Fifty-seven percent of cases were students of one school. The median age of cases was 11 years and 68% of cases were aged five to 19 years. Ninety-nine percent of cases were unvaccinated. One case had encephalitis and recovered. Only five cases occurred outside of the affected community. Genotyping results were consistent with importation from the Netherlands outbreak.

                    These kids live in a busy community and would have come into contact on numerous occasions with vaccinated children…but the vaccinated children did not get measles.

                    The only plausible answer to what happened is that vaccines are highly effective.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Nothing on that link about measles. And big deal measles are innocuous anyway. Now their immune systems are stronger because of it.

                  • David

                    But you have to admit that the measles vaccine is effective in that 99% of children who got measles were unvaccinated. Also, all chidren who were vaccinated that were exposed to these children with measles, did not get measles.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Those who were vaccinated had their immune systems compromised by not only the way the germ was introduced but by all the toxins in the vaccine. Whereas those who got the disease became immune for life without compromising their immune system.

                  • David

                    You still have to admit that the vaccine worked Correct? It prevented the vaccinated population from getting measles and the unvaccinated population were infected. Both Lowell and yourself cannot say the words that the vaccination clearly prevented measles transmission.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Where’s your data?

                  • David

                    You still have to admit that the vaccine worked Correct? It prevented the vaccinated population from getting measles and the unvaccinated population were infected. Both Lowell and yourself cannot say the words that the vaccination clearly prevented measles transmission.

                  • David

                    Please explain to me scientifically how an immune system is compromised by a vaccine and is not compromised by the disease itself. Let’s hear it , because that makes zero sense Do you even know what the immune system is or how it works? I guess you are just regurgitating again?

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    David, in case of measles it is the other way round. The immune system is NOT compromised by the vaccine itself, but severely compromised by the disease. That goes that far that the MMR vaccine lowers death rates by other diseases as well. This is well known and was somewhat puzzling until it was shown that the measles virus kills off memory cells thus causing an “amnesia” of the immune system. It tales approx 2-3 years till the immune system is back on track again during which period kids are vulnerable. This is what Ron wants. How utterly disgusting.

                  • AutismDadd

                    “amnesia” of the immune system…hilarious…where’s you data for this amnesia?

                  • AutismDadd

                    A commercial for the MMR brought to you by General Halfwit

                  • Ron Roy

                    I can’t believe you don’t know this. However here goes: First and foremost no one would ever be expose to all those childhood diseases at once. 2. Vaccines bypass the normal safeguards the body has against pathogens ( the skin, mucus membranes where IgA is produced, stomach acids etc that would in a normal setting would weaken the virus naturally. 3. All the other ingredients of vaccines,( ammonium sulfate, formaldehyde, mercury, ( yes it’s still there )polysorbate 80, bovine extract, human diploid cells etc which would not be present with the naturally occurring germ. If doctors practiced health care instead of disease care pathogenic germs would be of no consequence.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Just two words: complete bullshit. Firstly, measles for instance leaves you immune compromised for TWO YEARS and that effect is so strong that it can be seen by infection rates and even death rates due to other diseases. Second, Ronnyboy, any injury exposes the body to more antigens than all vaccinations combined and the very same route vaccinations talk. Thirdly, any fruit has more formaldehyde than a vaccine. As I said, would you have a proper education you would know that and not endanger people by giving them the advice of the village fool.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Vaccines leave some immune compromised for life but according to General Halfwit thats fine.

                  • David

                    Let’s see your trash science that suggests people immunocompromosed for life. All your heroes like Wakefraud are disgraced. You have trash science in trash journals by pseudoscientists. Take your anecdotes and shove them where the sun don’t shine.

                  • David

                    Let’s see your trash science that suggests people immunocompromosed for life. All your heroes like Wakefraud are disgraced. You have trash science in trash journals by pseudoscientists. Take your anecdotes and shove them where the sun don’t shine.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Whoa Plopaganda in a deluxe package

                  • AutismDadd

                    Step one, go to Google. Step two print life long allergies or some such wording. step three hit enter. step four read. step five think and incorporate new information. step five the light bulb comes on.

                  • David

                    Thanks autismDadd…you just highlighted to all the readers here how your beliefs came about. You do not know how to properly research a subject and you came by your knowledge at google university. You link to conspiracy sites and non peer reviewed “junk science” (your favourite).
                    Now lets do it properly!
                    Step 1: Formulate a hypothesis “vaccines cause lifelong allergies”
                    step 2: Go to pubmed and type in the key words
                    step 3: Look at literature and pick papers: Metanalysis or studies with large sample size, control group, blinding, in high impact journals.
                    For beginners, one could pick a review article if recent and in one of the top journals.
                    step 4: actually read your chosen papers! Look at the methods…did they calculate sample size? did they formulate the question before the study, or trawl the data afterwards? do the control and study groups have equal demographics? did they use appropriate randomization or blinding? did they use the correct statistics for the data etc etc…
                    step 5: If the particular study you are looking at passes all the tests of step 4. Then proceed to look at the data, tables and charts. Do you come to the same conclusion as the author?…etc etc

                    Anyone can write anything they want on the internet…it is not evidence. But autismDadd will never figure that out.

                  • David

                    Thanks autismDadd…you just highlighted to all the readers here how your beliefs came about. You do not know how to properly research a subject and you came by your knowledge at google university. You link to conspiracy sites and non peer reviewed “junk science” (your favourite).
                    Now lets do it properly!
                    Step 1: Formulate a hypothesis “vaccines cause lifelong allergies”
                    step 2: Go to pubmed and type in the key words
                    step 3: Look at literature and pick papers: Metanalysis or studies with large sample size, control group, blinding, in high impact journals.
                    For beginners, one could pick a review article if recent and in one of the top journals.
                    step 4: actually read your chosen papers! Look at the methods…did they calculate sample size? did they formulate the question before the study, or trawl the data afterwards? do the control and study groups have equal demographics? did they use appropriate randomization or blinding? did they use the correct statistics for the data etc etc…
                    step 5: If the particular study you are looking at passes all the tests of step 4. Then proceed to look at the data, tables and charts. Do you come to the same conclusion as the author?…etc etc

                    Anyone can write anything they want on the internet…it is not evidence. But autismDadd will never figure that out.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Wrong Doctor Emotional. All you said is what I said, with dif language. So how many patients have you saved between posts?

                  • David

                    Very huge difference. The difference between scientific critical thinking and using natural news as your health source. If you applied what I said to any of your theories they would all fall apart.

                  • AutismDadd

                    And if you could translate this I might know how to reply

                  • AutismDadd

                    And if you could translate this I might know how to reply

                  • David

                    Very huge difference. The difference between scientific critical thinking and using natural news as your health source. If you applied what I said to any of your theories they would all fall apart.

                  • David

                    it is quite ridiculous that you think googling a subject is equivalent to a researching a hypothesis in a structured and critical manner. I guess there lays the problem with yourself and other anti-vax is that they are uneducated and lack the ability to think critically.

                  • AutismDadd

                    A ludicrous statement from a Pro-vac Neanderthal. Your lack of maturity is troubling when you maintain you are a doctor.

                  • AutismDadd

                    A ludicrous statement from a Pro-vac Neanderthal. Your lack of maturity is troubling when you maintain you are a doctor.

                  • David

                    it is quite ridiculous that you think googling a subject is equivalent to a researching a hypothesis in a structured and critical manner. I guess there lays the problem with yourself and other anti-vax is that they are uneducated and lack the ability to think critically.

                  • David

                    I have saved the above exchange. This shows quite clearly why anti-vcxx lay people such as yourself have such delusions. It is due to your inability to think critically and use of google/non peered review sites. Moreover, it is your belief that this is the same as properly forming a question and researching with the best available evidence published in peer reviewed journals.

                  • AutismDadd

                    WOO-HOO!

                  • AutismDadd

                    Are you claiming both act identically?

                  • Ron Roy

                    I’ve done that many times.

                  • Ron Roy

                    I’ve done that many times.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    No, you have not done it one single time, Ronnyboy. No data, nothing. What you are doing is an Anne Elk like show presenting crude ideas which clearly demonstrate the non-knowledge of the subject.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    No, you have not done it one single time, Ronnyboy. No data, nothing. What you are doing is an Anne Elk like show presenting crude ideas which clearly demonstrate the non-knowledge of the subject.

                  • imho

                    Is there a resource for how to recognize and treat these childhood ailments since many doctors would not know how?

                  • Ron Roy

                    I wish I had an answer for you. All doctors can do is give symptoms a name. Fibromyalgia is an example of a disease that nothing can be done for but is vaccine caused.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    In two words: bullshit again. Either you present valid data or be again called an idiot.

                  • Ron Roy

                    There goes that word ( bullshit ) again. And you claim to be a scientist. Ha ha ha ha ha ha

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    No studies to support your point of view ? So you prefer again to be called an idiot. Good.

                  • Ron Roy

                    To be called an idiot by you is a compliment.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Where are the data to support your point of view ? None coming forward ? Not one single ? You can dance around the fire and cry MEDICAL MAFIA as long as you want, that does not alter the profound stupidity and lack of knowledge shown here. You are even proud of that and that is really amusing.

                  • AutismDadd

                    AWK! wanna cracker?

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    In two words: bullshit again. Either you present valid data or be again called an idiot.

                  • imho

                    What is the vaccine that you refer to and do you have the documentation that indicates the fibro-vaccine connection?

                  • Ron Roy
                  • imho

                    What is the vaccine that you refer to and do you have the documentation that indicates the fibro-vaccine connection?

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    DO NOT TRUST Ron Roy. He has NO proper education (by his own admission) and no idea how medicine works. He proves that on and on and on. He has never presented *any* data to prove his claims. You could as well consult a crystal ball. Following his advice is blowing money through the chimney at best.

                  • Ron Roy

                    You’re blowing smoke up your butt by saying that because the only people that even pretend to believe you are your cohorts.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Again no data to support your “hypotheses” ? I will tell you something. Your “natural” measles leaves a child TWO YEARS immunocompromised. It might even get diseases it already had and should be immune against. Aside that, your argument have the disease and be immune for life is as idiotic as shaving your head to avoid baldness.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Strange that all of a sudden this BULLSHIT comes out. The MEDICAL MAFIA is running scared and will pay to have phony studies like this done.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Its you who offers the idea to shave you head to avoid baldness not Ron

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    DO NOT TRUST Ron Roy. He has NO proper education (by his own admission) and no idea how medicine works. He proves that on and on and on. He has never presented *any* data to prove his claims. You could as well consult a crystal ball. Following his advice is blowing money through the chimney at best.

                  • AutismDadd

                    DATA

                  • David

                    So I provided data for you —something you have never done. Yet you have no answer

                  • David

                    So I provided data for you —something you have never done. Yet you have no answer

                  • David
                  • AutismDadd

                    2014 and from a government news channel? Buh Wah Ha Ha

                  • AutismDadd

                    Correlation

                  • David

                    So among 433 cases, 99 percent were unvaccinated and one was not. You claim correlation? If you ran the p value on that it would be 1/100000000

                  • AutismDadd

                    Doesn’t matter how much they P, you can only surmise the vaccine was responsible.

                  • David

                    So what is your answer? Why did only the unvaccinated children get measles ?
                    You really do not make any sense

                  • AutismDadd

                    Its the scientific principle the Coincidence. That same principle is what pediatricians advise parents whose child appears to regress into autism after a series of vaccines, so it must be true.

                  • David

                    Well if a 100 percent of all children with autism had been vaccinated and zero children with autism were unvaccinated…then maybe you could make such a claim. As per usual, your logic is terrible

                  • AutismDadd

                    Oh its about logic now? So when thousands of parents visit the doctor to tell them their child regressed after their shots and the doctor claims coincidence that’s logical?

                  • David

                    Anecdotes dude. The data shows no correlation nor causation. Why can’t you get this through your thick head.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Yea just cause you say it its true… Oh and trust weak paid for studies…great advice

                  • David

                    First of all, all studies are funded by someone. Second of all, these are very well designed studies with large sample size and peer reviewed. I would love to see you debunk one of three studies by actually reading it and looking at the data and stats. Since you do not understand stats, and the results are not what you hoped for, you reject them. It is not because I say it is true, it is because about 12 large reproducible studios say so!!

                  • AutismDadd

                    Who peer reviewed this “study” in B.C. with the religious group?

                  • AutismDadd

                    Not SOMEONE, they are funded by whoever has a vested interest. Don’t know how the corporate world works do you?

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Let me lecture you: Given a certain incidence of an event over time, there is a probability that an event (e.g. diagnosis of autism) happens closely after another event (e.g. vaccination) by pure coincidence. Given the incidence of autism this is quite probable. So just claiming thousands of people have reported therefore ….. is bullshit. The hard stats says there is no link. There are studies with a study size of half a million people (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12421889) that refute your claim. Additionally, it has been demonstrated that a full blown measles episode leaves children susceptible to other diseases (even those they already had) for two years. With your both igonrant village fool talks and ideas you and creeps like Ron Roy endanger children.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Stick it up your Austrian rear. Take you lecture elsewhere. If it wasn’t a legitimate issue it wouldn’t be decades long. People don’t just decide to fear vaccines, vaccines have a history. Like pharmaceuticals, vaccines have been the subject of lawsuits for decades and because parents were winning, and makers found AT FAULT, they blackmailed the world’s governments for protection. In the USA they have close to blanket protection from all forms of litigation. Where they claim they aren’t protected, the method is in its favor to a degree it worthless. Tell us Mr Hilter what other industry receives blanket protection for “SAFE and EFFECTIVE” products? And don’t start your blah blah that you are going to lecture me. You aren’t fit to lecture anyone.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Let me lecture you again: Lawsuits do NOT determine scientific facts, especially not in the USA where suing is easy and settlements are cheap because everybody pays the own legal costs. Do you know how that works ? You sue a pharmacompany and if they determine that a settlement is cheaper than an lawsuit they will settle. In Europe, where the loser pays the bill we have virtually NO suits against vaccine makers. Why ? You have to *scientifically prove* the cause, and if you are not able to do so you pay the entire bill which can be very hefty. Even the lawsuit in Italy was squashed by the superior court. I am awaiting your lectures or will they be again be one-liners ?

                  • AutismDadd

                    In Europe they are victimizing the children and Parents. Must be like mad dogs running the countries. But to win a lawsuit you stooge you need evidence and there are expert wittnesses used. Letting them settle gives them what they want, lower cost and no prison terms. They pay a fraction of profits and make millions, like VIOXX did.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Let me lecture you again: Litigations are CIVIL lawsuits which do not carry prison sentences and where preponderance of evidence in the eyes of the judge resp. jury is required. You really do not understand the impact of the “the loser pays the bill” principle, do you ?

                  • AutismDadd

                    Worthless blah blah. Deflection/moving the goalposts

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    You know why you NEVER post anything substantial ? You know you would be blasted out of the water and blamed to your bones in a matter of hours. You’re a coward.

                  • AutismDadd

                    You don’t post anything substantial either, unless you mean substantial blah blah

                  • AutismDadd

                    You don’t post anything substantial either, unless you mean substantial blah blah

                  • AutismDadd

                    I didn’t attend the Austrian University of DUH

                  • AutismDadd

                    I didn’t attend the Austrian University of DUH

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    This is correct. You didn’t even attend the hillbilly university of Duh. You likely didn’t attend *any* university. As for the rest of your positngs, more oral methane.

                  • AutismDadd

                    When Trump is elected I hope he puts Austrians on the don’t let them in list

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Should Trump be elected this will be the beginning of the end of the USA as a superpower.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Oh yea? Well feel free to take over the USA or die trying

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    There is no need to take over the USA. Marginalization is enough.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Who will protect you from the Russians?

                  • AutismDadd

                    Oh oral methane…wow you’re smart like anything

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Let me lecture you again: Litigations are CIVIL lawsuits which do not carry prison sentences and where preponderance of evidence in the eyes of the judge resp. jury is required. You really do not understand the impact of the “the loser pays the bill” principle, do you ?

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Let me lecture you again: Lawsuits do NOT determine scientific facts, especially not in the USA where suing is easy and settlements are cheap because everybody pays the own legal costs. Do you know how that works ? You sue a pharmacompany and if they determine that a settlement is cheaper than an lawsuit they will settle. In Europe, where the loser pays the bill we have virtually NO suits against vaccine makers. Why ? You have to *scientifically prove* the cause, and if you are not able to do so you pay the entire bill which can be very hefty. Even the lawsuit in Italy was squashed by the superior court. I am awaiting your lectures or will they be again be one-liners ?

                  • David

                    Ha ha. Struck a nerve with poor little autism dad. He tried to put two sentences together

                  • David

                    Ha ha. Struck a nerve with poor little autism dad. He tried to put two sentences together

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Yeah, and he didn’t even get the name of one of histories most infamous dictators right. In fact he involuntarily refers to to a hilarious Monty Pythons sketch where a Mr. Hilter, a Mr. Bimmler and a Mr. Ron Vibbetrop sit in an small pension in Minehead, Sommerset, planning an excursion to Stalingrad and preparing for the South minehead byelection, supported by the owner of the Axis Cafe….. Not to mention his lack of grasp of the US litigation system that facilitates such cases greatly – as explained previously.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Austrian Blah Blah syndrome

                  • AutismDadd

                    Thomas wants a gold star

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Yeah, and he didn’t even get the name of one of histories most infamous dictators right. In fact he involuntarily refers to to a hilarious Monty Pythons sketch where a Mr. Hilter, a Mr. Bimmler and a Mr. Ron Vibbetrop sit in an small pension in Minehead, Sommerset, planning an excursion to Stalingrad and preparing for the South minehead byelection, supported by the owner of the Axis Cafe….. Not to mention his lack of grasp of the US litigation system that facilitates such cases greatly – as explained previously.

                  • AutismDadd

                    You shouldn’t tell us you’re a doctor, that’s a scary thought. You’ll have to bore me with trash science this evening so I can sleep

                  • AutismDadd

                    You shouldn’t tell us you’re a doctor, that’s a scary thought. You’ll have to bore me with trash science this evening so I can sleep

                  • AutismDadd

                    In other words you have no rebuttal just a butthead statement

                  • David

                    You are a clown. That is your rebuttal

                  • AutismDadd

                    Poor Wittle David

                  • David

                    You are a clown. That is your rebuttal

                  • AutismDadd

                    In other words you have no rebuttal just a butthead statement

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Let me lecture you: Given a certain incidence of an event over time, there is a probability that an event (e.g. diagnosis of autism) happens closely after another event (e.g. vaccination) by pure coincidence. Given the incidence of autism this is quite probable. So just claiming thousands of people have reported therefore ….. is bullshit. The hard stats says there is no link. There are studies with a study size of half a million people (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12421889) that refute your claim. Additionally, it has been demonstrated that a full blown measles episode leaves children susceptible to other diseases (even those they already had) for two years. With your both igonrant village fool talks and ideas you and creeps like Ron Roy endanger children.

                  • David

                    Well if a 100 percent of all children with autism had been vaccinated and zero children with autism were unvaccinated…then maybe you could make such a claim. As per usual, your logic is terrible

                  • David

                    I gather you have no clue what a p value is not how it is calculated. No surprise

                  • David

                    I gather you have no clue what a p value is not how it is calculated. No surprise

                  • AutismDadd

                    But I know just saying something happened isn’t evidence. If it was doctors would believe parents who report their child regressed after a series of vaccines. Or is there a double standard?

                  • David

                    There is a huge difference. You are talking about anecdotal data versus a large study of 450 people where everyone unvaccinated got measles. If it was only 7/450 got measles then people would say it is by chance not real. You need to take a stats course buddy!

                  • AutismDadd

                    That was a report, not a study. And I suppose they asked each person about their MMR’s. Lets have that “study” then.

                  • David
                  • AutismDadd

                    Not a study. That’s a friggin report of measles in a community that shuns vaccines for religious reasons. A study would test a hypothesis. Tell me the hypothesis it studied.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Just by looking at the case numbers community vs non-community reveals what is going on: Quote: “Ninety-nine percent of cases were unvaccinated [remember, there are 450 cases !!!]. One case had encephalitis and recovered. Only five cases occurred outside of the affected community.”.

                    The probability that the outside is equally affected as the community (i.e. vaccines do NOT work) is less than 0.0001. (calculated with a chi-square, but any other test will give a comparable result).

                    However you don’t need to test. Alone the fact that the ratio of cases is over 100:1 in favour of unvaccinated kids is a first sight proof about the efficacy of vaccination.

                    In summary we have 450 immune-compromised individuals of which one had a severe complication that might have been deadly. Of the immune compromized individuals it can be expected that some will get diseases they already had. This is because of the idiocies people like you and Ron Roy spread. Consequently you are coresponsible for that.

                    Now, how about YOU presenting ANY data on your “hypotheses” ? Do you have any or do you continue to post just oral flatulences of a village idiot ?

                  • Ron Roy

                    Speaking of ”village idiots” your village was wondering where theirs went so I told them to look for you on disqus.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Speaking of ”village idiots” your village was wondering where theirs went so I told them to look for you on disqus.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Buh Wah Ha Ha what a stooge you are. We have a segregated community, NOT a mixed community. The segregated community interacts, thus they became exposed. The VACCINATED were NOT part of the segregated community, so exposure was vague and by chance. It resulted in zero cases (Imagine that?) and among those exposed ZERO deaths and a single case of encephalitis in a person who recovered. WOW Mr Austrian Blah Blah Champion, how could it have been a better case scenario? 450 with LIFELONG immunity from measles. And this segregated community accomplished that WITHOUT vaccines. So tell us Mr Genius, what’s the rate of autism in this group? What is their overall health status in comparison to the general public? Supply this information or I will lecture you and call you an idiot.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Let me explain something to you. You will lecture nobody on nothing. Quote: “This community is known to object to vaccination. This population is not socially or geographically isolated.” This is clearly stated in the introduction and poof goes your argument up the chimney. You are not even able to read your own language properly. The only thing you are able to do is producing brainless and mostly on-lined oral flatulences.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Says you, someone who is a bullshit machine

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Let me lecture you further: today, measles outbreaks start with very few, if not single individuals. In this example this means that one individual lead to 450 cases in an unvaccinated community but only 5 cases in a vaccinated community, despite all your natural life long health bullshit.

                    Now lets quote your “lecture”: “Says you, someone who is a bullshit machine”. Again a brainless on-liner flatulance. That and only that is what you are capable to lecture.

                  • AutismDadd

                    That’s the worst lecture I’ve ever had, but it made me fall on the floor laughing. No wonder we trounced you in two World Wars.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    To that one can only answer: Beethoven, Mozart, Bach, Händel, Gluck, Goethe, Schiller, Grillparzer, Hegel, Kant, Schopehauer, etc etc. and the Habsburgs once ruled over Florda, California and parts of Texas when America didn’t even exist. We made an entire civilization. So your last remark doesn’t scratch a little bit.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Such a duh moment. Try harder next time.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    I bet you are not able to recognize the works of even one of these people.

                  • AutismDadd

                    How much $$$ we talkin? In marks?

                  • AutismDadd

                    How much $$$ we talkin? In marks?

                  • AutismDadd

                    And you don’t recognize what an azz you make of yourself

                  • AutismDadd

                    So natural immunity is bullshit Mr Science?

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Let me lecture you further: today, measles outbreaks start with very few, if not single individuals. In this example this means that one individual lead to 450 cases in an unvaccinated community but only 5 cases in a vaccinated community, despite all your natural life long health bullshit.

                    Now lets quote your “lecture”: “Says you, someone who is a bullshit machine”. Again a brainless on-liner flatulance. That and only that is what you are capable to lecture.

                  • David

                    Whoa. Autism dad actually said more than one line and mad a sad attempt at using his brain. This is not an isolated community. You did not read the study. I live in this area. These kids interact with kids at shopping malls, parks, etc. In fact it says that other kids outside the community who of course were unvaccinated also got measles.
                    Nice try

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Segregation here is irrelevant. They both had probably one disease carrier triggering the epidemics result in an unvaccinated community: over 400 cases, one severe complication. Result in the vaccinated community: 5. This AutismDad#s arguments simply do not fly because he is a learning resistant, half-educated village fool.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Segregation here is irrelevant. They both had probably one disease carrier triggering the epidemics result in an unvaccinated community: over 400 cases, one severe complication. Result in the vaccinated community: 5. This AutismDad#s arguments simply do not fly because he is a learning resistant, half-educated village fool.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Yawn. They are basically segregated. So tell me did they close down the Mall to remove the thousands of dead bodies?

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    AutismDadd, David knows, you don’t. If you continue to claim that they are segregated you are not only ignorant, but a liar. Aside that it does not matter. One or two infected people in an unvaccinated community -> over 400 cases and a severe complication, one or two infected people in a vaccinated community -> 5 cases. So far to the sense of your natural immunity concept. It is bullshit.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Mohr you are a world class stooge. No one who has what you claim to have as education could be such a dope. Therefore you are likely a fraud. David too, doesn’t act or think like a highly educated person.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    David and I post data, you have posted over 19000 mostly brainless flatulences because you are either unable or too much of a coward to post real arguments. Aside that, since an epidemic ist much more profitable for a pharma company than a vaccination program, which one is paying you ?

                  • Ron Roy

                    ” since an epidemic ist much more profitable for a pharma company than a vaccination program”. No your wrong again treating the ill effects from vaccines is far more profitable for pharmaceutical companies. Small list: CIDP, MS, fibromyalgia, cancers, diabetes, Guillian Barre syndrome, autism, thrombocytopenia etc.etc..

                  • Ron Roy

                    ” since an epidemic ist much more profitable for a pharma company than a vaccination program”. No your wrong again treating the ill effects from vaccines is far more profitable for pharmaceutical companies. Small list: CIDP, MS, fibromyalgia, cancers, diabetes, Guillian Barre syndrome, autism, thrombocytopenia etc.etc..

                  • AutismDadd

                    The Autism Epidemic has been good to Pharma and Government protection from litigation has protected their profits and kept them in business.

                  • AutismDadd

                    yawn more ranting

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    David and I post data, you have posted over 19000 mostly brainless flatulences because you are either unable or too much of a coward to post real arguments. Aside that, since an epidemic ist much more profitable for a pharma company than a vaccination program, which one is paying you ?

                  • AutismDadd

                    Mohr you are a world class stooge. No one who has what you claim to have as education could be such a dope. Therefore you are likely a fraud. David too, doesn’t act or think like a highly educated person.

                  • AutismDadd

                    define segregated

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    AutismDadd, David knows, you don’t. If you continue to claim that they are segregated you are not only ignorant, but a liar. Aside that it does not matter. One or two infected people in an unvaccinated community -> over 400 cases and a severe complication, one or two infected people in a vaccinated community -> 5 cases. So far to the sense of your natural immunity concept. It is bullshit.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Try “made”

                  • David

                    Sorry, I made a typo on my iPhone…as I was between 2 emergency surgeries and was typing fast. What were you doing while I just saved sight in two patient’s eyes. You were probably sitting in your armchair contemplating how you have been dealt a raw deal in life and writing useless one liners.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Give me your address I send you a medal

                  • David

                    Sorry, I made a typo on my iPhone…as I was between 2 emergency surgeries and was typing fast. What were you doing while I just saved sight in two patient’s eyes. You were probably sitting in your armchair contemplating how you have been dealt a raw deal in life and writing useless one liners.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Just by looking at the case numbers community vs non-community reveals what is going on: Quote: “Ninety-nine percent of cases were unvaccinated [remember, there are 450 cases !!!]. One case had encephalitis and recovered. Only five cases occurred outside of the affected community.”.

                    The probability that the outside is equally affected as the community (i.e. vaccines do NOT work) is less than 0.0001. (calculated with a chi-square, but any other test will give a comparable result).

                    However you don’t need to test. Alone the fact that the ratio of cases is over 100:1 in favour of unvaccinated kids is a first sight proof about the efficacy of vaccination.

                    In summary we have 450 immune-compromised individuals of which one had a severe complication that might have been deadly. Of the immune compromized individuals it can be expected that some will get diseases they already had. This is because of the idiocies people like you and Ron Roy spread. Consequently you are coresponsible for that.

                    Now, how about YOU presenting ANY data on your “hypotheses” ? Do you have any or do you continue to post just oral flatulences of a village idiot ?

                  • AutismDadd

                    Fact 450 cases. Fact zero deaths or long term complication. Fact lifelong immunity. Fact no need to run for the hills.

                  • David

                    What if a child in the community was being treated for cancer or has immunodeficiency…and came into contact with one of these unvaccinated children. Just collateral damage?

                  • AutismDadd

                    I’ll wait while you shift the goal posts. Collateral Damage? Why are there 19 countries with vaccine injury compensation programs? Yea collateral damage, and not just one child, thousands. Quite the comparison, thousands to one.

                  • David

                    What if a child in the community was being treated for cancer or has immunodeficiency…and came into contact with one of these unvaccinated children. Just collateral damage?

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Let me lecture you: If 10.000 people get measles (as you desire), up to 20 will die, 5 in hundred will be permanently disabled. Your argumentation sounds like a drunk driver defending his recklessness by arguing that no accident happened so far.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Stop lecturing people you’re not very good at it.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Lacking proper eduction you can’t judge about that.

                  • David Wright

                    I think you’ve hit a nerve. 😉

                  • David Wright

                    I think you’ve hit a nerve. 😉

                  • Ron Roy

                    You mean not being indoctrinated by modern medicine / big pharm / the MEDICAL MAFIA makes me unqualified to judge? Wrong as usual Tommyboy.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Lacking proper eduction you can’t judge about that.

                  • AutismDadd

                    HELLO!!!! There were ONLY 450..no deaths..no lingering illness…450 now with lifelong natural immunity…case closed…no need for Austrian blah blah!

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    HELLO !!!! most drunken drivers do NOT cause accidents. Do you advocate drunken driving ?

                  • AutismDadd

                    Get back to me after you finish moving the goal posts

                  • AutismDadd

                    Is this what higher education provides? Did you attend the University of DUH?

                  • AutismDadd

                    Is this what higher education provides? Did you attend the University of DUH?

                  • David

                    These infected kids went into the general community and managed to get 5 other unvaccinated kids infected with measles. Vaccination status and herd immunity protected everyone else. If everyone was unvaccinated like you would like….then measles would have spread through the general population and killed 1/1000 and blinded many others.

                  • AutismDadd

                    And within this 450 how many died and went blind?

                  • AutismDadd

                    And within this 450 how many died and went blind?

                  • AutismDadd

                    You called this a study over and over. So lets say its a study, what did the study find? Of 450 who successfully conquered the Measles 450 now have lifelong immunity. Of 450 only one had TEMPORARY encephalitis. ZERO deaths. Its a great study

                  • AutismDadd

                    Ancient history boy

                  • AutismDadd

                    Ancient history boy

                  • Sonja Henie

                    Some may get SSPE. Some may have hearing/vision problems. Those don’t all show up right away. I had long suspected that I had some hearing loss. This was finally documented in college when I had to have a hearing test for a job. The audiologist said it was probably from measles or mumps. I had those diseases at ages 5-6.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Oh blah blah said it was PROBABLY blah blah WOW there’s your science all right

                  • David

                    My colleague is probably the world authority on the epidemiology of eye disease. He states that the most impressive change he has seen in the course of his career is the reduction in childhood blindness due to worldwide implementation of the measles vaccine.

                  • Sonja Henie

                    Wonderful!

                  • Sonja Henie

                    Some may get SSPE. Some may have hearing/vision problems. Those don’t all show up right away. I had long suspected that I had some hearing loss. This was finally documented in college when I had to have a hearing test for a job. The audiologist said it was probably from measles or mumps. I had those diseases at ages 5-6.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Another duh moment from Mr Hilter

                  • AutismDadd

                    Fact 450 cases. Fact zero deaths or long term complication. Fact lifelong immunity. Fact no need to run for the hills.

                  • Mark

                    Yes. That is the whole point. “Just saying something happened isn’t evidence”. That is why we use statistics to analyze if it is a random occurrence versus a true occurrence. There is absolutely no double standard…you are the one asking for a double standard I think I know why you only say one liners. Whenever you say more than a one liner, you show your ignorance!!!

                  • AutismDadd

                    That’s not evidence Mark

                  • AutismDadd

                    Doesn’t matter how much they P, you can only surmise the vaccine was responsible.

                  • Jonathan Graham

                    Ron, you can not provide any data that supports your position. Furthermore you agreed that you expect variability – exactly what you’d expect if your hypothesis is false.

                    That is pretty definitively your ass getting kicked.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Johnny I and many others have proven you wrong more times than I can count. You will never admit the truth because your love of money exceeds any semblance of a conscience you might have. I will admit that because of you and your partners in crime I’ve been able to meet people who are far more knowledgeable than me, concerning the dangers of vaccines, and because of them I will be able to save even more people from the horrors of vaccines. So please keep posting.

                  • Jonathan Graham

                    Johnny I and many others have proven you wrong more times than I can count.

                    Except that you can’t point out even one clear case of this. For example this case you’ve had to agree that even in your imagined world where vaccines create infant mortality there’s going to be significant variability between countries IM. Which is exactly what you expect to see in a world where there is no link between IM and vaccines.

                    So I suppose you could say that you’ve kicked your own ass here. If that makes you feel any better.

                  • Jonathan Graham

                    Johnny I and many others have proven you wrong more times than I can count.

                    Except that you can’t point out even one clear case of this. For example this case you’ve had to agree that even in your imagined world where vaccines create infant mortality there’s going to be significant variability between countries IM. Which is exactly what you expect to see in a world where there is no link between IM and vaccines.

                    So I suppose you could say that you’ve kicked your own ass here. If that makes you feel any better.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Johnny I and many others have proven you wrong more times than I can count. You will never admit the truth because your love of money exceeds any semblance of a conscience you might have. I will admit that because of you and your partners in crime I’ve been able to meet people who are far more knowledgeable than me, concerning the dangers of vaccines, and because of them I will be able to save even more people from the horrors of vaccines. So please keep posting.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Johnny you Tommy and all these other shills put together wouldn’t be able to kick anybody’s ass either verbally or physically so go back to sleep and keep dreaming.

              • AutismDadd

                Show us Canada’s vaccine schedule compared to the USA then. And tell us about Canada’s mandatory system.

              • Ron Roy

                The Canadian medical system ah yes that’s the one where one of my aunts was treated for heart disease for eight years. I said eight because on the ninth year the doctors said oops it’s NOT heart disease. Yeah that medical care

                • Thomas Mohr

                  Anecdotal evidence. Oh my God. Ronnyboy, you really have no idea on how to assess something.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Tommy I would like to know who you worked for when you co-authored those science papers and what prize you won.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    If you would be able to do proper literature research you would not ask this question. The next proof of incompetence.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Tell him what he wants to know or be called an idiot.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    He knows that already because he has the publication list. Apparently you can’t post more than meaningless one-liners

                  • AutismDadd

                    I’m busy getting variants

                  • Ron Roy

                    Your answer is all the proof I need. You somehow added your name to those science papers or you’re using someone else’s name because you’re certainly no scientist.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Yeah, Ronnyboy. and there are unicorns and elves in the woods. Plus, beware of the Leprechauns. If you would be able to do a proper literature research you would have seen my affiliation and could have checked it. Apparently you are not even able to do such a simple thing.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Says the pseudo scientist.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Where is your scientific work ? Oops, sorry, forgot, no adequate eductation.

                  • Ron Roy

                    No I wasn’t miseductated.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    You where not miseducated. According to your own admission you where not properly educated at all.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Try “were” genius and consider yourself lectured

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Nice try. Apparently I have to remind you that Englich is my second language and that you have NO second language and are not even able to understand your own language as you have proven.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Yea Englich

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Das ist das einzige was Du kannst. Auf Tippfehlern herumreiten. Wissenschaft oder sonst was – nichts. Erbärmlich. Und vergiss nicht: Deine Sprache, Kultur und fast alles trägt den Stempel: “Made in Europe”.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Looks misspelled to me. Is that Austrian bull?

                  • AutismDadd

                    Looks misspelled to me. Is that Austrian bull?

                  • AutismDadd

                    Famous last words before heading to South America in 1945?

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    This one-liner about the use of where and were is your entire lecture ? The rest is flatulence ? Wow.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Take spelling lessons. Ask your children to help

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    This one-liner about the use of where and were is your entire lecture ? The rest is flatulence ? Wow.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Where is your scientific work ? Oops, sorry, forgot, no adequate eductation.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Says the pseudo scientist.

                • David Wright

                  Ah yes, another one of your “Canadian” relatives. The same relatives who didn’t know private practice in Canada just meant the doctors opened their own office. Give up already.

                • Jonathan Graham

                  The Canadian medical system ah yes

                  The anecdotal evidence system. Ah yes, that’s where people like Ron Roy takes his (probably seriously skewed if not outright fabricated) stories and thinks he’s making a point.

        • Ron Roy

          Take it up with the AARP.. And besides you quote from 2011 the AARP’s figures are from 2013.

  • PrimaryCareDoc

    Wow. I just read that blog post by Colleen Huber. What a load of horse shit.

    • David

      Where can I find the blog post? How is she allowed to make the claim on her website of being able to treat 85% of cancers? Evil woman….do you think she actually believes it?

      • PrimaryCareDoc
        • David

          This shows how it will be impossible to clean house from within with regards to naturopathic medicine. If this Dr Huber with her ridiculously false claims is their main mouthpiece…

        • David

          This shows how it will be impossible to clean house from within with regards to naturopathic medicine. If this Dr Huber with her ridiculously false claims is their main mouthpiece…

      • PrimaryCareDoc

        She makes the claim of 85% on her website by basically claiming that every patient who died either didn’t follow their ridiculous diet, left the program AMA, or was killed by an MD.

        I wish I was joking, but her “research” is there on her website for all to see.http://www.naturopathic.org/content.asp?contentid=35

        • David

          Ironically, at the bottom of the website there are all the sponsors of this naturopathic association—all the big vitamin companies like Nordic naturals etc.
          As far as I know, the AMA is not sponsored by big pharma. I do not see them having such links and advertisements to industry on their website.
          Hypocrites!!!!

        • David

          Ironically, at the bottom of the website there are all the sponsors of this naturopathic association—all the big vitamin companies like Nordic naturals etc.
          As far as I know, the AMA is not sponsored by big pharma. I do not see them having such links and advertisements to industry on their website.
          Hypocrites!!!!

      • PrimaryCareDoc

        She makes the claim of 85% on her website by basically claiming that every patient who died either didn’t follow their ridiculous diet, left the program AMA, or was killed by an MD.

        I wish I was joking, but her “research” is there on her website for all to see.http://www.naturopathic.org/content.asp?contentid=35

    • Thomas Mohr

      Colleen Huber and her sugar feeds cancer bullshit again. They even published a “study” where they claim a 85% success rate. I think I have reviewed it here in a previous post. If you look closely at the numbers and what they did, Huber should be prosecuted. She is really reckless and dangerous.

      • Ron Roy

        Oncologists are reckless and useless not people like Colleen Huber.

      • Ron Roy

        Oncologists are reckless and useless not people like Colleen Huber.

        • Thomas Mohr

          Ronny, let me explain something to you. You don’t even understand the difference between germ theory and the pleomorphism hypothesis becuase you think that *both* are true – when they are in fact mutally exclusive. You admitted of having no higher eductation. I.o.W. you are in no position to judge. Got it ?

        • Thomas Mohr

          Ronny, let me explain something to you. You don’t even understand the difference between germ theory and the pleomorphism hypothesis becuase you think that *both* are true – when they are in fact mutally exclusive. You admitted of having no higher eductation. I.o.W. you are in no position to judge. Got it ?

          • Ron Roy

            No they’re not. If the soil / terrain / body is not in a healthy state / balance it’s possible that being exposed to a germ that is the result of someone elses disease will cause a similar problem in that person but that doesn’t negate the fact that that particular germ had mutated originally in that other persons body because of an unhealthy state. This is why holistic practitioner don’t attack the germ the restore the body to a healthy state and then the mutated germ will be restored to it’s non pathogenic state. Was that clear enough? Hello hello ? Oh Tommy can’t hear he’s still got his head up…………….

            • Thomas Mohr

              Just two words: complete bullshit. Quote: “This is why holistic practitioner don’t attack the germ the[y] restore the
              body to a healthy state and then the mutated germ will be restored to it’s non pathogenic state”. No understanding of germ theory, no understanding of mutations either and no understanding of the polymorphism theory.

              Aside that see, this approach is *exactly* why Ezekiel Stephan died. What many NDs do (and what you describe here) is akin to trying to fend off an ongoing attack of a sexual predator by talking about his childhood.This is also complete bullshit. You really do not understand even how disease works.

              • Ron Roy

                See what I mean when I say ”TUNNEL VISION and MISEDUCATED?”

                • Thomas Mohr

                  Ronny, one who – by his own admition – does not have an education can not judge if others are miseducated. In simple English for you: No education as auto-mechanic, no judging works of auto-mechanics, got it ?

                • Thomas Mohr

                  Ronny, one who – by his own admition – does not have an education can not judge if others are miseducated. In simple English for you: No education as auto-mechanic, no judging works of auto-mechanics, got it ?

                  • Ron Roy

                    Anyone can educate themselves, especially in the age of computers. My nephew leaned, on his own, so much about computers that when he took a class on computers in high school the teacher admitted he knew more than he did. He frequently bailed out the teacher when he ran into problems. In his first year of college he’s the one who tied in all the colleges computers together. So Tommy I WILL continue my education ans without having the tunnel vision students in various sciences have to maintain in order to graduate.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Someone who does not understand that toxicity does not depend only on amount, but also on weight and time given has no education in biology. Someone who does not understand that pleomorphism hypothesis and germ theory are mutually exclusive has no education either in that matter. Sorry Ron you are not in the position to judge.

                  • Ron Roy

                    So I see you agree with Boyd Haley.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Do you have problems comprehending ? Or do you have a reading problem ? Toxicity depends on dose, weight, time administered, availability and clearance. Example: The Aluminum in vaccines is not available due to the lack of solubility. Gee, that really can#t be that difficult to understand.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Vaccine advocates say two things about this: 1) that the aluminum
                    dissolves and is flushed from the body in a few days, or an amount of
                    time that renders it harmless, and 2) that the aluminum that doesnt
                    dissolve remains harmlessly at the site of injection (i.e., that its not
                    really “absorbed”). Both claims are false. Claim 1 is contradicted by
                    the Flarend study, which shows that only 6% (for hydroxide) and 22% (for
                    phosphate) of Al adjuvant was eliminated after 1 month. Claim 2 is
                    contradicted by studies by Dr Gherardi, which show that the aluminum
                    disperses throughout the body, and into the brain, in nanoparticulate
                    form (i.e. it moves around the body faster than it dissolves). Claim 2
                    is also contradicted by Flarend which demonstrated that Al adjuvant
                    appeared in many organs like the brain, spleen and liver.

                  • David

                    Like usual Ron, you are REGURGITATING what you have read on another website, but have not done any of the research yourself. Which website this time???
                    If you bothered to read the flared study, you will see that the authors conclude…”it is unlikely that the aluminum contained in the vaccine can have a significant influence of the risk of exposure to aluminum, which explains the safety of aluminum adjuvants.”
                    So obviously one of your pseudoscientists, on some conspiracy site, is taking things out of context again.
                    Thanks for providing the reference to prove our point yet again.

                  • Ron Roy

                    They did not conclude that:”it is unlikely that the aluminum contained in the vaccine
                    can have a significant influence of the risk of exposure to aluminum,
                    which explains the safety of aluminum adjuvants.” Your putting that in quotation marks doesn’t make it any less of a lie.

                  • David

                    Ron! Read the paper. Think for yourself. Flarend is not one of your quacks who believes adjuvants are dangerous. In fact his whole body of research shows how safe they are

                  • Ron Roy

                    I did.

                  • David

                    So quote the conclusion then if you have access to the paper

                  • David

                    So quote the conclusion then if you have access to the paper

                  • David

                    I am still waiting for you to quote the conclusion of this study. I copied and pasted what i read. you said it is wrong. So please copy and paste what you read (i know you didn’t read it because you could not understand it if you did….and I know you just regurgitate what you read on conspiracy websites)

                  • David

                    Waiting waiting. For quote from conclusion of flarend paper. Very easy just to copy and paste the conclusion Ron Roy. Problem is that you probably have never read anything except conspiracy sites or perhaps an abstract

                  • Ron Roy

                    Argument 1: “The body gets rid of most of the aluminium in just a few days.”

                    Argument 1 is wrong in view of Flarend and Movsas.
                    Flarend describes a study of radioactive (“radiolabeled”) aluminum
                    adjuvant injected into rabbits. Both Al hydroxide and Al phosphate
                    adjuvants were tested, in vaccine-relevant dosages. The Flarend paper is
                    well known, was published in the mainstream, vaccine-friendly journal Vaccine
                    in 1997, and is referenced by both Keith and Mitkus. Flarend is a
                    widely-cited study and represents the best available science on the
                    elimination of injected Al adjuvant.

                    Flarend injected radiolabeled AlOH and AlPO4 into rabbits, and
                    monitored the urinary excretion of the aluminum. After 28 days, the
                    rabbits were dissected and aluminum concentration was measured in body
                    tissues. The radioactivity allowed very accurate measurements of
                    aluminum excretion, and where it traveled in the body.

                    Flarend unequivocally determined that the aluminum was NOT eliminated
                    in “just a few days”, as claimed by the Oxford Vaccine Group. Instead,
                    Flarend found that most of the aluminum was retained in the body even
                    after 28 days. Flarend states:

                    “The cumulative amount of aluminum eliminated in the
                    urine during the 28 days of the study was 6% of the Al hydroxide and 22%
                    of the Al phosphate adjuvant dose. Aluminum from both adjuvants was
                    still being excreted at a steady rate at day 28.”

                    Since injected aluminum is not eliminated in the feces, about 94% and
                    78% of Al hydroxide and Al phosphate, respectively, remained in the
                    body after 28 days. The Oxford Vaccine Group is blatantly lying about
                    the elimination of Al adjuvant.

                    Further, Flarend also reported that the aluminum persisted in the blood for weeks. Flarend states

                    “The aluminum concentration [in blood] produced by AH
                    [Al hydroxide] adjuvant at 1 hour was similar to the concentrations
                    found from 2 to 28 days.”

                    (Statements in brackets added for clarity.)

                    The concentration in the blood of Al phosphate also persisted for weeks, but at a higher level.

                    The Movsas study (2013) used human infants and obtained similar
                    results. Movsas measured aluminum in urine and blood before and after
                    routine vaccination with 1200mcg aluminum at the 2-month date. No change
                    in urine or blood levels was observed (strangely, the actual
                    measurements were not disclosed)*. Movsas states:

                    “No significant change in levels of urinary or serum aluminum were seen after vaccination.“

                    The obvious question is “where did the aluminum go”? It was injected
                    into the body, but it didn’t show up in the blood or urine. It’s in the
                    body somewhere, but we don’t know where.

                    Movsas was “reassured” by these results, which makes no sense. Movsas states:

                    “We were reassured to find no significant postvaccine
                    rise in serum aluminum level after vaccination of preterm infants with
                    vaccines containing a total of 1200 μg of aluminum.“

                    The above statement is bizarre. We don’t know where the aluminum
                    went, and thats not reassuring at all. Many tissues are very sensitive
                    to aluminum, like the brain. Movsas’s irrational interpretation is an
                    example of the bias doctors have to ignore the harm caused by their
                    treatments (See our FAQ/About page for commentary about this). Also see NOTE below about Movsas*.

                    The Flarend and Movsas results obviously contradict the “just a few days” claim by the Oxford Vaccine Group and other vaccine advocates.

                    The Flarend and Movsas results are not surprising in view of the
                    present scientific understanding of aluminum adjuvants. Today, it is
                    known that Al adjuvant particles persist in the body and are not
                    eliminated, even after years. Its important to note that the Al adjuvant
                    particles dissolve very slowly; they remain in the body as particles,
                    not dissolved aluminum ions. The Al adjuvant is eaten by macrophages
                    (white blood cells), and then transported around the body and into the
                    brain by the macrophages. Since macrophages do not travel in the blood
                    (they travel via the lymphatic system), it’s not surprising that the
                    aluminum was not observed in the blood. The transport of aluminum
                    adjuvant nanoparticles is explained here: http://vaccinepapers.org/al-adjuvant-nanoparticles-can-travel-brain/

                    Conclusion

                    The Oxford vaccine group is wrong when they claim that “The body gets rid of most of the aluminium in just a few days.”

                  • David

                    Ron. Now you are outright lying through your teeth. That is not what the conclusion of the flarend paper says. Flarend, himself, unequivocally says that his research shows that aluminum adjuvants are safe in vaccines. You did not read his paper and are misquoting him.

                  • David

                    READ the actual paper in VACCINE. You are still regurgitating what other people say. Flarend states over and over again in his paper that his study clearly shows that the body is easily able to clear the small amount of aluminum adjuvant.
                    You are not reading his paper, you are still looking at other people’s conspiracy sites.

                  • Ron Roy

                    28 days later and the rabbit is still clearing the aluminum from his body.

                  • David

                    READ the actual paper in VACCINE. You are still regurgitating what other people say. Flarend states over and over again in his paper that his study clearly shows that the body is easily able to clear the small amount of aluminum adjuvant.
                    You are not reading his paper, you are still looking at other people’s conspiracy sites.

                  • David

                    here you go RON, you link actually provides a pictured copy of the flarend paper. Read the conclusion where it says how safe the aluminum adjuvant is based on his study!!!! stop misquoting him

                    http://vaccinepapers.org/wp-content/uploads/In-vivo-absorption-of-aluminium-containing-vaccine-adjuvants-using-26Al2.pdf

                  • Ron Roy

                    28 days later and the aluminum was still in the rabbits body is safe? And this was based on one shot. Kids today receive as much as 850mcg in one dose of a combination vaccine. Another study:

                    Aluminum vaccine adjuvants: are they safe?

                    Tomljenovic L1, Shaw CA.

                    Author information

                    Abstract

                    Aluminum
                    is an experimentally demonstrated neurotoxin and the most commonly used
                    vaccine adjuvant. Despite almost 90 years of widespread use of aluminum
                    adjuvants, medical science’s understanding about their mechanisms of
                    action is still remarkably poor. There is also a concerning scarcity of
                    data on toxicology and pharmacokinetics of these compounds. In spite of
                    this, the notion that aluminum in vaccines is safe appears to be widely
                    accepted. Experimental research, however, clearly shows that aluminum
                    adjuvants have a potential to induce serious immunological disorders in
                    humans. In particular, aluminum in adjuvant form carries a risk for
                    autoimmunity, long-term brain inflammation and associated neurological
                    complications and may thus have profound and widespread adverse health
                    consequences. In our opinion, the possibility that vaccine benefits may
                    have been overrated and the risk of potential adverse effects
                    underestimated, has not been rigorously evaluated in the medical and
                    scientific community. We hope that the present paper will provide a
                    framework for a much needed and long overdue assessment of this highly
                    contentious medical issue.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    As I already pointed out to you. The methodology of this “study” is crap. With the same methodology on can prove a correlation between consumption of organic food and autism.

                  • David

                    here you go RON, you link actually provides a pictured copy of the flarend paper. Read the conclusion where it says how safe the aluminum adjuvant is based on his study!!!! stop misquoting him

                    http://vaccinepapers.org/wp-content/uploads/In-vivo-absorption-of-aluminium-containing-vaccine-adjuvants-using-26Al2.pdf

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Ronnyboy, again you are talking bullshit. Flamend has already been pointed out to you. Additionally, if you waould have read and understood the paper, it says that only 10% of the Aluminum went into the serum within 28 days which is in line with an insoluble substance. This is corroborated by Movsas who detects no rise in Al levels. So that is in line with the insolubility of AlOH3. An insoluble material can not be toxic. Toxicity requires a solution of the poison. Aside that, copy pasting without quoting the source correctly is considered copyright infringement, Ronnyboy. If you had a proper university degree you would know that.

                  • Ron Roy

                    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21568886

                    Aluminum is an experimentally demonstrated neurotoxin and the most
                    commonly used vaccine adjuvant. Despite almost 90 years of widespread
                    use of aluminum adjuvants, medical science’s understanding about their
                    mechanisms of action is still remarkably poor. There is also a
                    concerning scarcity of data on toxicology and pharmacokinetics of these
                    compounds. In spite of this, the notion that aluminum in vaccines is
                    safe appears to be widely accepted. Experimental research, however,
                    clearly shows that aluminum adjuvants have a potential to induce serious
                    immunological disorders in humans. In particular, aluminum in adjuvant
                    form carries a risk for autoimmunity, long-term brain inflammation and
                    associated neurological complications and may thus have profound and
                    widespread adverse health consequences. In our opinion, the possibility
                    that vaccine benefits may have been overrated and the risk of potential
                    adverse effects underestimated, has not been rigorously evaluated in the
                    medical and scientific community. We hope that the present paper will
                    provide a framework for a much needed and long overdue assessment of
                    this highly contentious medical issue.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Makes the aluminum/Alzheimer’s connection seem more plausible

                  • Ron Roy

                    Argument 1: “The body gets rid of most of the aluminium in just a few days.”

                    Argument 1 is wrong in view of Flarend and Movsas.
                    Flarend describes a study of radioactive (“radiolabeled”) aluminum
                    adjuvant injected into rabbits. Both Al hydroxide and Al phosphate
                    adjuvants were tested, in vaccine-relevant dosages. The Flarend paper is
                    well known, was published in the mainstream, vaccine-friendly journal Vaccine
                    in 1997, and is referenced by both Keith and Mitkus. Flarend is a
                    widely-cited study and represents the best available science on the
                    elimination of injected Al adjuvant.

                    Flarend injected radiolabeled AlOH and AlPO4 into rabbits, and
                    monitored the urinary excretion of the aluminum. After 28 days, the
                    rabbits were dissected and aluminum concentration was measured in body
                    tissues. The radioactivity allowed very accurate measurements of
                    aluminum excretion, and where it traveled in the body.

                    Flarend unequivocally determined that the aluminum was NOT eliminated
                    in “just a few days”, as claimed by the Oxford Vaccine Group. Instead,
                    Flarend found that most of the aluminum was retained in the body even
                    after 28 days. Flarend states:

                    “The cumulative amount of aluminum eliminated in the
                    urine during the 28 days of the study was 6% of the Al hydroxide and 22%
                    of the Al phosphate adjuvant dose. Aluminum from both adjuvants was
                    still being excreted at a steady rate at day 28.”

                    Since injected aluminum is not eliminated in the feces, about 94% and
                    78% of Al hydroxide and Al phosphate, respectively, remained in the
                    body after 28 days. The Oxford Vaccine Group is blatantly lying about
                    the elimination of Al adjuvant.

                    Further, Flarend also reported that the aluminum persisted in the blood for weeks. Flarend states

                    “The aluminum concentration [in blood] produced by AH
                    [Al hydroxide] adjuvant at 1 hour was similar to the concentrations
                    found from 2 to 28 days.”

                    (Statements in brackets added for clarity.)

                    The concentration in the blood of Al phosphate also persisted for weeks, but at a higher level.

                    The Movsas study (2013) used human infants and obtained similar
                    results. Movsas measured aluminum in urine and blood before and after
                    routine vaccination with 1200mcg aluminum at the 2-month date. No change
                    in urine or blood levels was observed (strangely, the actual
                    measurements were not disclosed)*. Movsas states:

                    “No significant change in levels of urinary or serum aluminum were seen after vaccination.“

                    The obvious question is “where did the aluminum go”? It was injected
                    into the body, but it didn’t show up in the blood or urine. It’s in the
                    body somewhere, but we don’t know where.

                    Movsas was “reassured” by these results, which makes no sense. Movsas states:

                    “We were reassured to find no significant postvaccine
                    rise in serum aluminum level after vaccination of preterm infants with
                    vaccines containing a total of 1200 μg of aluminum.“

                    The above statement is bizarre. We don’t know where the aluminum
                    went, and thats not reassuring at all. Many tissues are very sensitive
                    to aluminum, like the brain. Movsas’s irrational interpretation is an
                    example of the bias doctors have to ignore the harm caused by their
                    treatments (See our FAQ/About page for commentary about this). Also see NOTE below about Movsas*.

                    The Flarend and Movsas results obviously contradict the “just a few days” claim by the Oxford Vaccine Group and other vaccine advocates.

                    The Flarend and Movsas results are not surprising in view of the
                    present scientific understanding of aluminum adjuvants. Today, it is
                    known that Al adjuvant particles persist in the body and are not
                    eliminated, even after years. Its important to note that the Al adjuvant
                    particles dissolve very slowly; they remain in the body as particles,
                    not dissolved aluminum ions. The Al adjuvant is eaten by macrophages
                    (white blood cells), and then transported around the body and into the
                    brain by the macrophages. Since macrophages do not travel in the blood
                    (they travel via the lymphatic system), it’s not surprising that the
                    aluminum was not observed in the blood. The transport of aluminum
                    adjuvant nanoparticles is explained here: http://vaccinepapers.org/al-adjuvant-nanoparticles-can-travel-brain/

                    Conclusion

                    The Oxford vaccine group is wrong when they claim that “The body gets rid of most of the aluminium in just a few days.”

                  • AutismDadd

                    wrong. He is a quack who downplays what happens to adjuvants and supports the belief stimulating the immune system with aluminum mimics a reaction to an actual virus, which is impossible.

                  • David

                    Impossible? Yes dr autism dadd and where is your immunology/md degree from? You have an academic appointment at what university?

                  • AutismDadd

                    And lets hear your medical background then.

                  • David

                    Ha. You challenged the wrong person. I have a bsc. MD. Mph. And medical speciality. As well as an appointment at a major university.

                  • AutismDadd

                    I would have said panhandler or grill cook. Missed it by this much!

                  • David

                    Obviously, you have no scientific background whatsoever, as you cannot understand an extremely simply designed study.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Wow the Amazing Kreskin knows all

                  • AutismDadd

                    Is that the type that manipulates the numbers to make things like autism go away?

                  • AutismDadd

                    strawman

                  • David

                    http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=2275444
                    this study clearly shows that first off unvaccinated children do get autism (even though you anti vax try to pretend they don’t), and also clearly shows no link between mmr and autism.
                    Unless you can prove that they used poor methodology or the wrong statistics, you cannot reject this study.

                  • AutismDadd

                    And you can prove every child with autism is unvaccinated?

                  • David

                    I didn’t sAy that. I said the prevalence of autism is the same in vaccinated and unvaccinated kids

                  • AutismDadd

                    But its not that’s a lie

                  • David

                    All the studies show that it is the truth over and over again. Show me a population based study that says otherwise?

                  • AutismDadd

                    You merely imply they exist in a manner that makes it an open and shut case…They don’t exist.

                  • AutismDadd

                    What studies are you using and who paid for them?

                  • AutismDadd

                    I tried to find studies showing that and could not find them. Sounds like you are blowing smoke

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    AutismDadd do you have problems reading English ? Where are the studies that support your claims ? On the table or be called an idiot.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Call me whatever you want if you think it will help. I can take it.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Call me whatever you want if you think it will help. I can take it.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    AutismDadd do you have problems reading English ? Where are the studies that support your claims ? On the table or be called an idiot.

                  • David

                    I provided you four major studies showing that autism rates are equal between vaccinated and unvaccinated populations. You just will not look at them

                  • AutismDadd

                    They are bogus

                  • David

                    Why are they bogus? Perhaps because they prove without any doubt that mmr does NOT cause autism.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Don’t be daft. I’ve NEVER read a study that proved its point. It may conclude it, but that’s the bogus part. And they are heavily littered with fluff like “suggests” “may indicate” blah blah, that’s just double talk and lingo.

                  • David

                    So basically you have never read any studies. So all your beliefs I built on an anecdotes and you reject the scientific method.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Sort of. The scientific method isn’t w/o flaw

                  • AutismDadd

                    Sort of. The scientific method isn’t w/o flaw

                  • AutismDadd

                    Funny how pro-vac Neanderthals want to write little conclusions w/o evidence. Where have we heard of that before?

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    You very likely never have read any study, at least not to the point of understanding it. So once again, where are your data supporting your point ? You have the choice of either presenting them or being called an idiot.

                  • AutismDadd

                    I’m working on getting some variants

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    So no data, you have chosen to be called an idiot. Thanks.

                  • AutismDadd

                    I guess I’ll hide and hang my head in shame…snicker

                  • AutismDadd

                    I guess I’ll hide and hang my head in shame…snicker

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    So no data, you have chosen to be called an idiot. Thanks.

                  • Ron Roy

                    When Tommy can’t come up with a sound rebuttal he calls people idiots.

                  • AutismDadd

                    He’s definitely an Austrian master race believer

                  • AutismDadd

                    I’m working on getting some variants

                  • AutismDadd

                    I tried to find studies showing that and could not find them. Sounds like you are blowing smoke

                  • AutismDadd

                    What trash science. If a child receiving MMR has a sibling with autism, but the other child doesn’t become autistic it means no association? What utter rubbish

                  • David

                    Seriously dude. How can you not understand this article. Trash science? It shows that the prevalence of autism was equal in an unvaccinated versus vaccinated in a high risk population. Even with your limited intellect you should be able to understand this study.

                  • AutismDadd

                    So who would expect anything else from a HIGH RISK POPULATION? How is that meaningful?

                  • David

                    Wow, do I really have to explain this study to you. It is really not that complicated.
                    One often chooses a high risk population, so that one will have a higher prevalence of the disease being studied.
                    They then showed that the prevalence of autism in this high risk population was the same between those who were vaccinated or not. Obviously, if vaccines caused autism, then one would expect a higher incidence of autism in the vaccinated population then the non vaccinated population.
                    Since the incidence rates were the same…this is compelling proof that vaccines do not cause autism.
                    This is an extremely easy study to understand…what is the problem?

                  • AutismDadd

                    How would you prove who is in a high risk population? Even in families with a child with autism has children who don’t. So how does that count as high risk?

                  • David

                    Autismdadd. Seriously. What is wrong with you? This is an easy study to understand. At least come up with an intelligent statement? At least Lowell and Ron seem to grasp simple concepts, although they distort them.
                    Let’s try again. Pretend it is not a high risk population as all that matters is that the groups are the same with the only difference being that one group is vaccinated and the other is not. The rates of autism are equal. Therefore this is evidence that the mmr does not cause, nor is it even temporally associated with autism.
                    Wow. I think a 5 year old could grasp this concept

                  • AutismDadd

                    I agree you sound like a 5 year old. Plus you don’t answer direct questions you just give pointless lectures

                  • AutismDadd

                    I agree you sound like a 5 year old. Plus you don’t answer direct questions you just give pointless lectures

                  • David

                    Autismdadd. Seriously. What is wrong with you? This is an easy study to understand. At least come up with an intelligent statement? At least Lowell and Ron seem to grasp simple concepts, although they distort them.
                    Let’s try again. Pretend it is not a high risk population as all that matters is that the groups are the same with the only difference being that one group is vaccinated and the other is not. The rates of autism are equal. Therefore this is evidence that the mmr does not cause, nor is it even temporally associated with autism.
                    Wow. I think a 5 year old could grasp this concept

                  • AutismDadd

                    Sounds unethical

                  • David

                    So autism dadd, here are citations for well done large studies in the 3 most prestigious journals (JAMA, NEJM, Lancet), as well as a cochrane review all showing that autism is not related too MMR. Besides wakefield fraudulent farce of 12 patients that has been retracted, what evidence can you provide to the contrary.

                    Taylor B, Miller E, Farrington CP, et al. Autism and measles, mumps, and rubella vaccine: no epidemiological evidence for a causal association. Lancet. 1999;353(9169):2026-2029.

                    Madsen KM, Hviid A, Vestergaard M, et al. A population-based study of measles, mumps, and rubella vaccination and autism. N Engl J Med. 2002;347(19):1477-1482.

                    Demicheli V, Rivetti A, Debalini MG, Di Pietrantonj C. Vaccines for measles, mumps and rubella in children. Cochrane Database Syst Rev. 2012;2:CD004407.

                    http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=2275444

                  • AutismDadd

                    AND?

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Let me explain something to you. Your posts regarding research in high risk populations, especially this: So who would expect anything else from a HIGH RISK POPULATION? How is that meaningful?” and this: “So who would expect anything else from a HIGH RISK POPULATION? How is that meaningful?” prove beyond doubt that you have no clue whatsoever how research is done. Doing research in high risk populations means that the prevalence of a disease is higher which in turn means that associations can be detected with much more statistical power. This is science 101. Not knowing this means you are in no position whatsoever to assess the validity of autism research. David and I are in the position. What you post can be described by two words: utter bullshit. Or more precisely: http://howdovaccinescauseautism.com/

                  • AutismDadd

                    That’s your opinion and it has no credibility with me.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    I don’t give a fart about your assessments on credibility of anything. That is not my “opinion”, that is how science works. I have a proper degree plus 25+ years experience, you don’t even have the education. Therefore you are in no position to judge. Got it ?

                  • AutismDadd

                    I got Milk. I find it disturbing you think you know all. No modesty, just straightforward I’m better than you. Makes for an inflexible mind which makes you a prime candidate to preach science. So you would then claim science is omnipotent?

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Let me guess, for the sake of openmindedness and flexibility you also let somebody with proven incompetence in automechanics repair a defective brake ?

                  • AutismDadd

                    Shifting the goalpost….

                  • AutismDadd

                    Do Austrians really say fart? I’m calling fraud

                  • AutismDadd

                    Nope

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    I don’t give a fart about your assessments on credibility of anything. That is not my “opinion”, that is how science works. I have a proper degree plus 25+ years experience, you don’t even have the education. Therefore you are in no position to judge. Got it ?

                  • David

                    4 studies below. Read them.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Below what?

                  • AutismDadd

                    Sum them up for me. Do they use terms like” may suggest” “may indicate” etc? Then they may be bogus

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    You don’t know how the immune system works, do you ? The adjuvant is given to enhance the reaction towards the antigen by ways of signaling an unspecific activation.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Yea just what I said. How does the immune system understand that? IT DOESN’T and it can’t. Its an artificial Hail Mary from scientists experimenting on consumers. No amount of B.S. statements like yours will change what’s going to happen from what you’d like to happen.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Yea just what I said. How does the immune system understand that? IT DOESN’T and it can’t. Its an artificial Hail Mary from scientists experimenting on consumers. No amount of B.S. statements like yours will change what’s going to happen from what you’d like to happen.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Quote: “How does the immune system understand that ?” I.o.W: you do not know how the immune system, especially the interplay between specific and unspecific activation works. AutismDad, you are dealing here with scientists in cancer research with 25+ years experience who know very well how an adjuvant works.

                  • AutismDadd

                    You fooled me then. Your simplistic nonsense is not an explanation, its low grade rubbish

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    If you had any idea about the immune system, you would know that following an injury the unspecific part of the immune system is activated first, followed by the specific part. The better the unspecific activation, the stronger the following specific response. This is how adjuvants work. Apparently you do not know that.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Its a theory and vaccines effect the order of response, so it isn’t as you say. We aren’t discussing injury, unless you mean vaccine injury

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Oh my God. First of all, does the expression theory of gravitation tell you something ? Have you ever seen an object fall bottom-up ? In science a “theory” is a hypothesis that is that firm established by evidence that it amounts to a fact. I.o.W. you do not understand science. Aside this, the injury is the injection. Do I really have to explain this to you ?

                  • AutismDadd

                    You’ve shown me that all I’ll hear from you is theory and hypothetical ideas. I don’t consider that concrete proof, but those with Blind Faith in science Syndrome think its the gospel. No wonder you are called nerds.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    In other words, no idea about immunology or science at all. Once again, in science a theory is the highest class of certainty. Read any textbook on immunology.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Wow what garbage. No wonder the World is so screwed up. I mean really theory is NOT concrete, therefore it not of high certainty. Maybe it is to those who are indoctrinated and parrot the propaganda, but to any with the ability to think logically, that’s trash science.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Cute, you are lecturing me about definitions of scientific terms We are talking here about science, therefore the definition given by the National Academy of Sciences of the USA counts: Theory: A well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that can incorporate facts, laws, inferences, and tested hypotheses.” In other words, something very certain. You don’t even know how to use your own mother tongue correctly. Let me lecture you: the correct word in Enlish for what you want to express is “hypothesis” which the action of adjuvants in immunology is certainly not.

                    Aside that, is gravitational theory (note, that is a theory !) also something uncertain for you ? I hope you stay away from anything that flies.

                  • AutismDadd

                    That’s a lot of blah blah. Is that your specialty? What about theories about adjuvants then and their negative outcomes? Must be certain and substantiated then. Thanks for that information

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Let me lecture you. The correct word is “hypotheses” and NOT theory. How about YOU presenting some data on your “hypotheses” ? Up to know there is nothing.

                  • AutismDadd

                    This is something you should know. But I guess you chose to ignore it in favor of a popular theory.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    This is not how things work. You have a hypothesis, you have to provide supporting data. From your responses I conclude that you are unable to do that. Dismissed.

                  • AutismDadd

                    If you are trying to break my heart, you’ll have to do better.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Wrong. I am exposing you as an ignorant who has no idea what he is talking about.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Funny I was doing the same with you.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Strangely you did not present one single shred of a fact to that effect

                  • AutismDadd

                    I’m letting you do it for me. Your ego seems inflated and you have some sort of God complex that warps your every statement.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Strangely you did not present one single shred of a fact to that effect

                  • AutismDadd

                    Up to know?

                  • David

                    Basically you do not believe in anything unless you can see it. So you ignore years and years of research and scientific progress because you do not understand it. Even your precious gurus like mercola etc would not deny these simple scientific certainties that children learn in basic science.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Says thee of zero credibility

                  • David

                    Please explain to me how I have zero credibility as I am an MD specialist with publications in major journals. As opposed to you who is a troll who seems to have even trouble figuring out pubmed, and last education in science was 30 years ago in grade 8.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Do all MD specialists post juvenile responses? Seems to be common. Is it part of your indoctrination?

                  • David Wright

                    Pot, kettle is waiting on line one.

                  • AutismDadd

                    So you are saying yes then

                  • AutismDadd

                    If you are going to mimic me at least get some decent material

                  • David Wright

                    Good comeback….4 days later. LOL

                  • AutismDadd

                    Oh so it has to be in 3 days or less?

                  • Ron Roy

                    ”with publications in major journals.” Citations please.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Ronnyboy, where are YOUR publications ? Oh sorry I forgot. No proper education, no publication.

                  • Ron Roy

                    No publication because drug companies will not pay anyone to tell the truth.

                  • David

                    I have never received funding from any pharma company and I have lots of publications.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Citations please.

                  • David

                    I have never received funding from any pharma company and I have lots of publications.

                  • Ron Roy

                    No publication because drug companies will not pay anyone to tell the truth.

                  • Ron Roy

                    ”with publications in major journals.” Citations please.

                  • Boris Ogon

                    Could you clarify this “where no foot has gone before” slogan of yours? “That’s a lot of blah blah blah” isn’t really working for me unless you’ve discovered some sort of yogic hemorrhoidal self-treatment that you’ve failed to mention but which also reassures one that having left thought in a shallow grave somewhere is a novelty.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Again….makes no sense

                  • Boris Ogon

                    Again….makes no sense

                    Given your demonstrated level of ideation, the only place that occurs to me that you could “put your foot where no foot has gone before” is your asshοle. Is that clearer?

                    In fairness, I don’t know how experimental you are in the bedroom. Is there a symmetric or asymmetric toenail-trimming rule in place with you and your partner, or is it freestyle?

                  • AutismDadd

                    You are a sick puppy. Time for your distemper vaccine.

                  • Ron Roy

                    They ignore or outright lie about any negative outcomes when it comes to vaccines.The goal of the pharmaceutical industry is to make money period and anyone who helps them in that goal is rewarded those who find fault are put through a living hell.

                  • David

                    Yes we know. I have that on your list of conspiracy theories along with 911.
                    We are still waiting for this data that you said your superiors are not allowing you to release yet. When is that going to occur?

                  • Ron Roy

                    We are still waiting for this data that you said your superiors are not
                    allowing you to release yet. When is that going to occur? What the hell are you talking about?

                  • David

                    I recall you saying that Naessens people or someone you knew had data that they were going to release when they are ready that was going to change everything? Do I have to go back through all your messages to find it?

                  • David

                    Found it. You said you have sources and data that are yet unrevealed. You said that would prove us all wrong but that you cannot reveal it until you are allowed too.

                  • Sonja Henie

                    This sounds like the Obama birth certificate nonsense. Someone was always going to release that Kenyan BC “next week, month, whatever”.

                  • Ron Roy

                    I never said any such thing, Cut and paste what I supposedly said.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Careful David is an MD (mental defective)

                  • AutismDadd

                    He’s just following orders

                  • kissmetoad

                    Oh. My. Goddess.

                    You don’t even know how the word theory (as opposed to hypothesis) is used in science. Please go away.

                  • Ron Roy

                    kissmetoad what were you before you became a toad?

                  • AutismDadd

                    No one forced you to join in. Why don’t you take up cliff diving….water optional

                  • AutismDadd

                    Followed by Shill Gambit….sock puppet

                  • kissmetoad

                    Oh. My. Goddess.

                    You don’t even know how the word theory (as opposed to hypothesis) is used in science. Please go away.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Why was that an explanation? Sounds like Austrian blah blah to me.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Eight brainless one-liners alone as a response to my posts and not *one* containing anything of substance. The work of an oral Flatulist. Of course it sounds like blah blah to you. Sciencetalk always sounds like bla bla for the village fools.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Wrong General. Back to the Russian Front

                  • kissmetoad

                    Your every utterance only serves to further display your total ignorance of all things scientific.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Oh and you are Super Toad and you are here to save science from the evil Vaccine Safety Promoters?

                  • kissmetoad

                    Your every utterance only serves to further display your total ignorance of all things scientific.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Sounds like bullshit. An unspecific part? It has no name? The specific part? No name? Explain how the unspecific part causes the specific part to be stronger.

                  • AutismDadd

                    I thought I was dealing with clowns…still do

                  • AutismDadd

                    unspecific activation? In other words a free for all and lets whatever happens happen. No way to control or predict the outcome. No wonder 19 countries have vaccine injury compensation plans.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Yea and likely that’s whats harming children, a massive reaction..anaphylaxis

                  • https://www.hempista.com/cannabis-spa Hempista

                    Don’t you come here and start up about anaphlaxis, I am an anaphylactic allergy patient that carries epipens for life threatening allergies. I LIVE IT EVERY DAMN DAY.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Are you vaccinated?

                  • https://www.hempista.com/cannabis-spa Hempista

                    Yes I am and I am an old bitch, born before all of this dumb blabber about vaccines. I have anaphylaxis because GENETICS. I have rare autoimmune disease (multiple) again, because genetics. Not vaccines.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Why deny the truth?

                  • AutismDadd

                    Ok then you can easily prove it.

                  • https://www.hempista.com/cannabis-spa Hempista

                    I had my first anaphylaxis event as a baby. I was born this way.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Was it in a pediatrician’s office?

                  • https://www.hempista.com/cannabis-spa Hempista

                    No. It was to organic eggs which were laid by the chickens my grandparents raised and the anaphylaxis happened in my grandparents home. Old-time farming people that didn’t believe in fast food, ‘chemicals’ and anything else woo woos like to blame and shame for. I didn’t have fast food or “chemicals” as a child. I WAS BORN THIS WAY. To this day I have egg allergies and they got worse when I turned middle aged–which is very typical for GENETIC allergy and autoimmune patients. I did not grow out of my food allergies like most kids.

                    So dad, maybe junior over there is autistic because you allowed fast food? Shall I start my blame and shame list for you now? I sure can act superior in the fast food department because I was not exposed to that at all!

                    But really, I don’t want to shame you at all. Your child was born that way. You just need to accept that and learn to accept other people with disabilities and illnesses. It was hard for me to accept my illnesses for what they were and that there is no cure right now. I try to work on making my life more comfortable and fun–and I’ll be damned if I am going to allow myself to be shamed and blamed.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Oh brother. So you are nonvaccinated? Never had a vaccine cultivated with chick embryo or chicken protein?

                  • https://www.hempista.com/cannabis-spa Hempista

                    Think about this for a minute. Your question by its very nature acknowledges that I was born. this. way. If your immune system is prone to making IgE antibodies to the proteins found in eggs it will make those antibodies no matter how you are exposed to them whether you are exposed through awesome organic eggs, factory-farmed eggs, or egg in vaccines. It’s the egg protein that the immune system makes the IgE for–it doesn’t give a damn where those eggs came from. Your immune system does whatever the hell it wants to–you are not in control and there is no cure or answer as to why this is. Maybe if it concerns you so much you need to support food allergy research.

                    And as for vaccinations ANY vaccination I take, and I do take them when I am on immune suppressing therapy or chemo so that I don’t die from the flu, etc., has to be done and monitored in a board certified allergist MD office for 1-3 hours. I absolutely cannot go around taking whatever vaccine is offered due to the eggs.

                  • AutismDadd

                    And you can prove it never started with vaccines in the first place? Don’t you know they have moved away from chicken protein to human protein? And other animal protein like green monkey and others were used? Inject vaccines containing foreign protein and voila allergy to that foreign protein.

                  • https://www.hempista.com/cannabis-spa Hempista

                    DAD…this is what I am trying to point out to you…It. Does. Not. Matter. how the protein was introduced into my body, topically, injection, by mouth, my immune system made antibodies to the protein in eggs, period. It sees a foreign protein no matter which door it comes through. It’s one of the allergies I carry epipens for. I’ve almost died from eggs. The egg reaction is the same no matter, even TOUCHING eggs and getting them on my skin will start a reaction. If I had never been vaccinated my body would have developed an egg reaction because DING DING DING! I was born. that. way.

                    I have a whole bunch of deadly allergies you won’t understand and have nothing to do with egg in vaccines. As a teenager I had multiple hospital visits for COSMETICS. Full blown anaphlylaxis after applying a bunch of cheap makeup like teenage girls do. Full blown anaphylaxis after applying benzyl peroxide OTC acne treatment as a teenager.

                    And yes they most certainly do use eggs in vaccines nowadays which is why I have to have a special kind of flu shot that can only be given in a board certified allergist office. I only take vaccines now when there is a clear and present danger to my life, like during immune suppression. I don’t take vaccines otherwise or like other people do getting their flu shot every year.

                  • https://www.hempista.com/cannabis-spa Hempista

                    DAD…this is what I am trying to point out to you…It. Does. Not. Matter. how the protein was introduced into my body, topically, injection, by mouth, my immune system made antibodies to the protein in eggs, period. It sees a foreign protein no matter which door it comes through. It’s one of the allergies I carry epipens for. I’ve almost died from eggs. The egg reaction is the same no matter, even TOUCHING eggs and getting them on my skin will start a reaction. If I had never been vaccinated my body would have developed an egg reaction because DING DING DING! I was born. that. way.

                    I have a whole bunch of deadly allergies you won’t understand and have nothing to do with egg in vaccines. As a teenager I had multiple hospital visits for COSMETICS. Full blown anaphlylaxis after applying a bunch of cheap makeup like teenage girls do. Full blown anaphylaxis after applying benzyl peroxide OTC acne treatment as a teenager.

                    And yes they most certainly do use eggs in vaccines nowadays which is why I have to have a special kind of flu shot that can only be given in a board certified allergist office. I only take vaccines now when there is a clear and present danger to my life, like during immune suppression. I don’t take vaccines otherwise or like other people do getting their flu shot every year.

                  • AutismDadd

                    And you can prove it never started with vaccines in the first place? Don’t you know they have moved away from chicken protein to human protein? And other animal protein like green monkey and others were used? Inject vaccines containing foreign protein and voila allergy to that foreign protein.

                  • https://www.hempista.com/cannabis-spa Hempista

                    Think about this for a minute. Your question by its very nature acknowledges that I was born. this. way. If your immune system is prone to making IgE antibodies to the proteins found in eggs it will make those antibodies no matter how you are exposed to them whether you are exposed through awesome organic eggs, factory-farmed eggs, or egg in vaccines. It’s the egg protein that the immune system makes the IgE for–it doesn’t give a damn where those eggs came from. Your immune system does whatever the hell it wants to–you are not in control and there is no cure or answer as to why this is. Maybe if it concerns you so much you need to support food allergy research.

                    And as for vaccinations ANY vaccination I take, and I do take them when I am on immune suppressing therapy or chemo so that I don’t die from the flu, etc., has to be done and monitored in a board certified allergist MD office for 1-3 hours. I absolutely cannot go around taking whatever vaccine is offered due to the eggs.

                  • https://www.hempista.com/cannabis-spa Hempista

                    No. It was to organic eggs which were laid by the chickens my grandparents raised and the anaphylaxis happened in my grandparents home. Old-time farming people that didn’t believe in fast food, ‘chemicals’ and anything else woo woos like to blame and shame for. I didn’t have fast food or “chemicals” as a child. I WAS BORN THIS WAY. To this day I have egg allergies and they got worse when I turned middle aged–which is very typical for GENETIC allergy and autoimmune patients. I did not grow out of my food allergies like most kids.

                    So dad, maybe junior over there is autistic because you allowed fast food? Shall I start my blame and shame list for you now? I sure can act superior in the fast food department because I was not exposed to that at all!

                    But really, I don’t want to shame you at all. Your child was born that way. You just need to accept that and learn to accept other people with disabilities and illnesses. It was hard for me to accept my illnesses for what they were and that there is no cure right now. I try to work on making my life more comfortable and fun–and I’ll be damned if I am going to allow myself to be shamed and blamed.

                  • https://www.hempista.com/cannabis-spa Hempista

                    I had my first anaphylaxis event as a baby. I was born this way.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Overdoing the ” medical marijuana ” just a little aren’t we?

                  • https://www.hempista.com/cannabis-spa Hempista

                    Overdoing the stupid troll act a little today, aren’t we? BLOCKED. Bye bye.

                  • https://www.hempista.com/cannabis-spa Hempista

                    Overdoing the stupid troll act a little today, aren’t we? BLOCKED. Bye bye.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    You don’t know how the immune system works, do you ? The adjuvant is given to enhance the reaction towards the antigen by ways of signaling an unspecific activation.

                  • Mike Stevens

                    And for some reason you think that the human body can magically distinguish between the “evil” aluminium which comes from a vaccine, and the “good” alumninium absorbed following ingestion.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Did you purposely ignore what I just posted? Where does it say good or bad aluminum? The shills who up voted your response are just as ignorant as you are. You’re all in denial of the truth even when it hits you in between the eyes.

                  • Mike Stevens

                    Ron, you are on record as saying 100% of the aluminium derived from oral ingestion is excreted by the kidneys (so is “harmless”).
                    You also maintain that the aluminium derived from injection is not excreted, and causes brain damage.

                    By what ridiculous, contorted biochemical mechanism do you think this is possible?
                    Can you explain why you think there are differences in the pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics of aluminium, and explain how the body magically distinguishes between chemically identical aluminium molecules?

                  • Ron Roy

                    http://beyondconformity.co.nz/hilarys-desk/part_two_astounding_hypocrisy_-_ingestion_and_injection

                    What do vaccine contaminants do? What about DNA? What about aluminium?
                    There are lots of medical articles now being published, sounding the
                    alarm about aluminium in vaccines, but the medical system defaults to
                    its routine dogma which says: “You “eat” aluminium, so it’s safe to inject it and the body just expels it from the body really fast.” Their
                    own medical literature has stated for 11 years, that aluminium in
                    vaccines is a significant contributor to the body burden (Yokel McNamara
                    2001) , because unlike “ingested” aluminium, the body absorbs injected
                    aluminium into organs and bones.

                  • Mike Stevens

                    Have you read Yokel’s paper?
                    It confirms what I have been saying, not you.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Well, Ronyboy, that is the difference between no education and a proper university degree. Yokel 2002, injection of soluble Al into rats, 0.005% was found in the brain.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Mechanisms of aluminum adjuvant toxicity and autoimmunity in pediatric populations.

                    Tomljenovic L1, Shaw CA.

                    Author information

                    Abstract

                    Immune
                    challenges during early development, including those vaccine-induced,
                    can lead to permanent detrimental alterations of the brain and immune
                    function. Experimental evidence also shows that simultaneous
                    administration of as little as two to three immune adjuvants can
                    overcome genetic resistance to autoimmunity. In some developed
                    countries, by the time children are 4 to 6 years old, they will have
                    received a total of 126 antigenic compounds along with high amounts of
                    aluminum (Al) adjuvants through routine vaccinations. According to the
                    US Food and Drug Administration, safety assessments for vaccines have
                    often not included appropriate toxicity studies because vaccines have
                    not been viewed as inherently toxic. Taken together, these observations
                    raise plausible concerns about the overall safety of current childhood
                    vaccination programs. When assessing adjuvant toxicity in children,
                    several key points ought to be considered: (i) infants and children
                    should not be viewed as “small adults” with regard to toxicological risk
                    as their unique physiology makes them much more vulnerable to toxic
                    insults; (ii) in adult humans Al vaccine adjuvants have been linked to a
                    variety of serious autoimmune and inflammatory conditions (i.e.,
                    “ASIA”), yet children are regularly exposed to much higher amounts of Al
                    from vaccines than adults; (iii) it is often assumed that peripheral
                    immune responses do not affect brain function. However, it is now
                    clearly established that there is a bidirectional neuro-immune
                    cross-talk that plays crucial roles in immunoregulation as well as brain
                    function. In turn, perturbations of the neuro-immune axis have been
                    demonstrated in many autoimmune diseases encompassed in “ASIA” and are
                    thought to be driven by a hyperactive immune response; and (iv) the same
                    components of the neuro-immune axis that play key roles in brain
                    development and immune function are heavily targeted by Al adjuvants. In
                    summary, research evidence shows that increasing concerns about current
                    vaccination practices may indeed be warranted. Because children may be
                    most at risk of vaccine-induced complications, a rigorous evaluation of
                    the vaccine-related adverse health impacts in the pediatric population
                    is urgently needed.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    This paper is scientific crap. Critics see here: http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/12/08/and-global-warming-is-caused-by-the-decr/

                    You citing this shows that you are not able to see even glaring methodological errors which invalidate entire papers. Thanks Ron, good work in disproving yourself.

                  • Ron Roy

                    I see when an article by a reputable scientist disputes your ideas it’s crap. Oh ok I’ll have to remember that.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    “Reputable scientist” does not impress me one little bit. I look at the methodology which you can not due to your lack of education. A scientist publishing correlations based on groups rather than individuals is not a reputable scientist.

                  • Ron Roy

                    So that would negate all studies done on groups?

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Yes. If you correlate in this way you could “prove” that organic food causes autism.

                  • AutismDadd

                    And do reputable scientists have a one size fits all approach to vaccines or an individual approach?

                  • AutismDadd

                    Shill manual page 111

                  • Ron Roy

                    Orac( David Gorski ) critical of a study that proves aluminum adjuvants are dangerous I’m shocked I tell you shocked. Nice try Tommy as if Gorski would agree with anything that would hurt the criminal vaccine industry.

                  • kissmetoad

                    All these Gorski attacks are telling me that he is having great success at countering anti-vax bullshit.

                  • Ron Roy

                    No I just enjoy picking on people who work for him.

                  • Ron Roy

                    No I just enjoy picking on people who work for him.

                  • https://www.naturopathicdiaries.com Britt Hermes

                    I didn’t know Gorski employed anyone. What a tired, boring argument. Are you working for the AANP or supplement companies? Or perhaps my old boss?!

                  • AutismDadd

                    Says the Gorski sock puppet

                  • Ron Roy

                    This is the author of that science blog that you posted:(NaturalNews) Karmanos Cancer Center surgical oncologist Dr. David
                    Gorski — already the subject of a Natural News investigation that has submitted numerous allegations to the Federal Bureau of Investigation — is now linked to a “skeptics” kingpin caught on tape soliciting sex from a young man, according to sources.

                    Dr. David Gorski — aka “ORAC” — is the mentally deranged leader of an online hate group
                    calling themselves “skeptics.” An ongoing Natural News investigation
                    has revealed that Gorski is just one of several co-conspirators who
                    engage in online racketeering, identity deceptions and alleged cyber crimes to commit scientific fraud while destroying their targeted enemies in the holistic health realm.

                    Gorski is widely described as a pseudoscientist and quack,
                    and collaborates with other purveyors of quackery and deception such as
                    “Stephen P Novella; Kimball C. Atwood IV, MD; Mark A. Crislip, MD;
                    Harriet Hall, MD; and Paul Ingraham,” reports Child Health Safety.
                    The words and phrases often used to describe David Gorski include
                    “pathological,” “Silence of the Lambs” and “psychologically unfit to
                    treat patients.”

                    “Gorski routinely behaves like a megalomaniac
                    and has taken the vaccination debate down into the ‘cyber gutter’ with
                    his vile and vindictive bully posts to anyone who dares to question him,
                    typically attacking them with paragraph after paragraph of
                    smokescreens, name-calling, and ‘e-bloviating.’ It’s a sure fire bet
                    that whenever Gorski uses pejoratives like ‘quack’ and ‘science denier,’
                    he has zero interest in any logical or reasonable discussion,” says Ty
                    Bollinger, creator of the globally popular Truth About Cancer docu-series.

                    David Gorski urges his fellow science trolls to engage in “emotional warfare”
                    by impersonating other people (using “sock puppet” trolling tactics) to
                    spread fictional, highly charged accounts of horrible things that
                    happen to parents who don’t obediently surrender their children to
                    endless vaccination demands. Gorski’s deranged attacks also put lives at
                    risk. He “built his platform of distraction and misinformation against
                    the importance of the critical subjects of systemic detoxification and
                    heavy metal toxicity for almost 12 years,” Rashid A. Buttar told Natural
                    News. “Initially during his attacks on me, Dr. Gorski posed as a single
                    mother of an autistic child. But he was exposed as a card carrying
                    member of an organization called Quackbusters by JB Handley, a self
                    proclaimed group protecting the sanctity of medicine.”

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Ronnyboy, that does not impress me one little bit. Let me lecture you. Your “reputable scientist” has been heavily criticized for their absolute crappy methodology and not once, but repeatedly. Their last paper was even retracted by the editor of the journal which is extremely rare and very embarassing. They used t-tests where an ANOVA was appropriate, failed proper blinding etc. etc. and these are only the minor flaws. This post proves beyond any doubt that you completely lack the knowledge to assess the validity of your claims in a scientific way. As you said, you have not been brainwashed by higher eduction, but the reason for this is that there simply is nothing to wash.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Ronnyboy, regarding Natural News, everything on this website has to be assumed to be a lie unless proven otherwise.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Any quote from Gorski has to be assumed to be a lie unless proven otherwise.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Mohr is likely a Gorski sock puppet account

                  • AutismDadd

                    Definitely a shill/ sock puppet. Is that you Pastrami?

                  • David

                    Looking through your comments…they are all one liners
                    You never cite any peer reviewed papers. You do not offer an educated point of view. You just spout one line garbage

                  • AutismDadd

                    I’m pointing out the nonsense and making fun of stupidity and misinformation. Why debate idiots who have Blind Faith Syndrome? You types need metal health support.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    OK, lets correct the mistakes in the post. The correct wording for what you do is “I am talking nonsense”. You have not pointed out anything because pointing out something requires that you reason why something is nonsense. Have you done that ever ? No. “and making fun of stupidity and misinformation”. What you are actually doing is spreading misinformation. The fun part does not apply since your posts are not funny. “Why debate idiots who have Blind Faith Syndrome? You types need metal health support.” Since you do not post any data to support your point of view, your point of view must be faith based. So your question apparently applies to us (although we don’t debate you because stupidity can not be debated). We reply to you because your misinformation potentially damages people. And now, on the table with your data or be called an idiot.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Can you list that in point form?

                  • AutismDadd

                    Clean up in aisle 3…bring a bull dozer

                  • AutismDadd

                    Great work Sherlock

                  • AutismDadd

                    Yep that’s our ORAC alright

                  • AutismDadd

                    Most science is crap. Most studies rubbish, what’s your point Zigfried?

                  • David

                    Here is a summary article that even someone as simple minded as you can understand
                    http://www.harpocratesspeaks.com/2015/01/its-past-time-to-pay-piper.html?m=1

                  • David

                    Sorry Ron. Wrong link. Not that you plan to read it anyways
                    http://www.harpocratesspeaks.com/2015/02/demystifying-vaccine-ingredients-aluminum.html?m=1

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    David, it does not make sense to present this to Ron. He himself admitted two things, lacking (a) a proper higher education and knowing how to look things up rather than (b) knowing things themselves. However, in order to be able to put facts in context meaningfully one needs (a) as well as (b). Add to that a severe Dunning-Krüger effect and one gets the old proverb against ignorance even Gids fight in vain.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Coming from a make believe scientist.

                  • David

                    Funny that you say that unvaccinated people don’t get sick. Every population based study says otherwise. Here is a study for you that not only shows that unvaccinated kids do get autism, but also clearly shows that there is no link between mmr and autism. Yeah I know it is all lies because it does not agree with your beliefs.
                    http://jama.jamanetwork.com/mobile/article.aspx?articleid=2275444

                  • AutismDadd

                    Shill…Dunning-Kruger is the tip off

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    David, it does not make sense to present this to Ron. He himself admitted two things, lacking (a) a proper higher education and knowing how to look things up rather than (b) knowing things themselves. However, in order to be able to put facts in context meaningfully one needs (a) as well as (b). Add to that a severe Dunning-Krüger effect and one gets the old proverb against ignorance even Gids fight in vain.

                  • AutismDadd

                    ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23557144

                  • AutismDadd

                    ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23557144

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Wow, finally a paper. Incredible. Have you actually read and understood it ? Apparently not since it directly counters your claims about the neurotoxicity of Aluminum.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Here’s another one for you Tommyboy:https://vactruth.com/2014/01/28/toxic-levels-of-aluminum/

                  • Ron Roy

                    Here’s another one for you Tommyboy:https://vactruth.com/2014/01/28/toxic-levels-of-aluminum/

                  • AutismDadd

                    If you believe it does you are a complete fraud, and a member of the liar’s club.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Did you read the paper ? Did you UNDERSTAND it ? No. It says that nanoparticles may also appear in other organs via transportation by macrophages. So what ? That is known. It states that in some rare circumstances this might trigger an autoimmune disease. So what ? This is also known. Autoimmune diseases cn be triggered by *any* immune stimulus. It also states that in case of Aluminum accumulation in the brain is very low i.e. 1:10E7 that is 0.000001%. That is corroborated by Flaned. Of course you did neither read nor understand the paper because both requires sufficient command of the English language which you do not have. If one is lying, it is you. Remember you claimed that a paper refers to a segregated community when both the paper and a witness said it is not ? In court you would have lost any credibility alone by this.

                  • Ron Roy

                    According to Hugh Fudenberg, MD, the world’s leading immunogeneticist
                    and 13th most quoted biologist of our times (nearly 850 papers in peer
                    review journals): If an individual has had 5 consecutive flu shots
                    between 1970 and 1980 (the years studied) his/her chances of getting Alzheimer’s Disease is 10 times higher
                    than if he/she had one, 2 or no shots. Dr. Fudenberg said it was so and
                    that it was due to mercury and aluminum that is in every flu shot. The
                    gradual mercury and aluminum buildup in the brain causes cognitive
                    dysfunction.

                    Flu shots contain 25 micrograms of mercury. One microgram is considered toxic.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Ronnyboy, this is the result of having no eductation. Fudenberg has written a lot but that does not impress me one little bit. His quote was never supported by *any* studies dealing with this subject. It is a personal opinion and refuted. Sorry Ronnyboy, science does NOT work by quoting some people, it works only by presenting data. Oh sorry, i forgot, you can’t because you lack the education.

                  • Ron Roy

                    800 papers published in peer review journals but when he goes against your employers all of a sudden he’s a quack an idiot. Yeah typical reaction from the purveyors of poisons.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    You do not get it. A long publication list does not impress me. If the hypothesis proposed does not fly it does not fly.

                  • Ron Roy

                    It does fly. It just doesn’t put money into the MEDICAL MAFIA’s coffers. Listen very carefully and I will give YOU a lecture: Any substance / cure / therapy that doesn’t benefit the drug industry will be denigrated in every way possible including the vilification of such substances / cures and therapies by shills as yourself. End of lecture.

                  • Ron Roy

                    800 papers published in peer review journals but when he goes against your employers all of a sudden he’s a quack an idiot. Yeah typical reaction from the purveyors of poisons.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Not an opinion a ten year study he conducted. Of course you missed that because it contradicts, what you constantly lie about, that aluminum in vaccines is perfectly safe.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Actually you are not citing a study, but Larry King.
                    http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0512/15/lkl.01.html

                    and here is the source that Fudenberg opined during a conference:

                    http://www.doctorschierling.com/blog/its-flu-season-again-alzheimers-anyone

                    Sorry Ronnyboy, again you hit your knee.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Nice try but you FAIL again. You’re a glutton for punishment aren’t you? The first link is inconsequential and the second although quoting doctor Fudenberg, very accurately I might add, are obviously not the sources I used. However I encourage everyone to click on the second link and they will see what happens to any honest scientist who dares to go against anything that will affect the profits of the MEDICAL MAFIA. Again thanks for the second link.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Ronnyboy, don’t try to squeal yourself out, post a citation, but please NOT a 30 year old newspaper and NOT “google it it is easy”. Are you able to do that or do we have to wait forever AGAIN ?

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Ronnyboy, this is the result of having no eductation. Fudenberg has written a lot but that does not impress me one little bit. His quote was never supported by *any* studies dealing with this subject. It is a personal opinion and refuted. Sorry Ronnyboy, science does NOT work by quoting some people, it works only by presenting data. Oh sorry, i forgot, you can’t because you lack the education.

                  • David

                    Ha ha. Isn’t this the same fudenberg who said he could cure children’s autism by injecting them with his own bone marrow? I forgot about that guy.
                    autism dadd –what do you think, want to try injecting an 85 year old quacks bone marrow into your child?

                  • Ron Roy

                    800 papers in peer review journals and he’s a god but when he goes against big pharm he’s denigrated and called every name in the book. Typical of the MEDICAL MAFIA. His bone marrow theory was probably right and so was his attempt a chelation, Chelation has been used for decades to remove heavy metals from people who were being poisoned by them therefor it would remove the mercury and aluminum that babies got from vaccines which caused autism. You obviously ignore the science that would harm the profits of your employer. And you shills wonder why you’re called shills.

                  • Ron Roy

                    800 papers in peer review journals and he’s a god but when he goes against big pharm he’s denigrated and called every name in the book. Typical of the MEDICAL MAFIA. His bone marrow theory was probably right and so was his attempt a chelation, Chelation has been used for decades to remove heavy metals from people who were being poisoned by them therefor it would remove the mercury and aluminum that babies got from vaccines which caused autism. You obviously ignore the science that would harm the profits of your employer. And you shills wonder why you’re called shills.

                  • AutismDadd

                    It might help you wise up though.

                  • David

                    so does that mean you will not try injecting his bone marrow into your child? You mean you do not believe in fudenberg’s research? He is going to cure your child

                  • AutismDadd

                    Haven’t they used bone marrow transplants to help sick vaccine victims get over leukemia

                  • David

                    So go for it! what are you waiting for?

                  • AutismDadd

                    I don’t have vaccine induced leukemia

                  • AutismDadd

                    I don’t have vaccine induced leukemia

                  • AutismDadd

                    Lets just say its frightening that you claim you are a doctor.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Lets just say its frightening that you claim you are a doctor.

                  • David

                    so does that mean you will not try injecting his bone marrow into your child? You mean you do not believe in fudenberg’s research? He is going to cure your child

                  • David

                    Ha ha. Isn’t this the same fudenberg who said he could cure children’s autism by injecting them with his own bone marrow? I forgot about that guy.
                    autism dadd –what do you think, want to try injecting an 85 year old quacks bone marrow into your child?

                  • AutismDadd
                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Yawn. Been there, seen it. Ever heard of solubility as necessity for such an effect ?

                  • AutismDadd

                    Of course Mr 25 years of cancer research, research means nothing, science ans studies mean nothing unless you give it the thumbs up. What a fraud you are.

                  • AutismDadd

                    So obvious all you do is deny everything. A REAL honest, ethical professional would not simply deny everything.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Nice try stooge. You must get tired moving the goal posts. And patting your own back. Can’t you ask a shill in another stall to do it?

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Did you read the paper ? Did you UNDERSTAND it ? No. It says that nanoparticles may also appear in other organs via transportation by macrophages. So what ? That is known. It states that in some rare circumstances this might trigger an autoimmune disease. So what ? This is also known. Autoimmune diseases cn be triggered by *any* immune stimulus. It also states that in case of Aluminum accumulation in the brain is very low i.e. 1:10E7 that is 0.000001%. That is corroborated by Flaned. Of course you did neither read nor understand the paper because both requires sufficient command of the English language which you do not have. If one is lying, it is you. Remember you claimed that a paper refers to a segregated community when both the paper and a witness said it is not ? In court you would have lost any credibility alone by this.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Wow, finally a paper. Incredible. Have you actually read and understood it ? Apparently not since it directly counters your claims about the neurotoxicity of Aluminum.

              • Ron Roy

                See what I mean when I say ”TUNNEL VISION and MISEDUCATED?”

              • David

                While Ron lives in the muddled past. Maybe you can tell us about the future with CRISPR. Do you think this is as big a breakthrough as suggested ?

                • Thomas Mohr

                  In research definitely, this will be extremely interesting. In therapy – that remains to be seen. The problem is that most genetic diseases are best treated at early embryonal stage simply due to the vastly lower number of cells present compared to adults. The regulation of embryonal development is still largely a terra icognita in terms of changes in gene expression. In some species, e.g. Drosophila gene expression barely changes during HUGE developmental steps …. I think there is a lot of research ahead.

                  • AutismDadd

                    ” I think there is a lot of research ahead” oh brilliant. Its like saying there’s a lot of weather ahead…

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Do you even know what CRISP is ? I bet not. If you are too ignorant to say something, you better keep quiet.

                  • AutismDadd

                    I’m sure I could look it up, but your statement is hilarious Captain Obvious

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Do you even know what CRISP is ? I bet not. If you are too ignorant to say something, you better keep quiet.

                  • AutismDadd

                    ” I think there is a lot of research ahead” oh brilliant. Its like saying there’s a lot of weather ahead…

                • Thomas Mohr

                  In research definitely, this will be extremely interesting. In therapy – that remains to be seen. The problem is that most genetic diseases are best treated at early embryonal stage simply due to the vastly lower number of cells present compared to adults. The regulation of embryonal development is still largely a terra icognita in terms of changes in gene expression. In some species, e.g. Drosophila gene expression barely changes during HUGE developmental steps …. I think there is a lot of research ahead.

              • Ron Roy

                And you don’t understand how REAL science works.

              • AutismDadd

                Two Words? You might want a recount.

                • Thomas Mohr

                  Really ? complete … one. bullshit … two.

                  • AutismDadd

                    And what about the paragraphs with it?

                  • kissmetoad

                    What about them?

                  • AutismDadd

                    bbbrrraatt

                  • kissmetoad

                    What about them?

            • David

              Do you not realize yourself that you accept a 100 percent what is written in the naturopathic literature or found on your bogus websites and deny 100 percent what MD do? Do you not see the problem with this, namely how gullible you are. A good scientist questions everything they see, and looks over the evidence at the source. You just blindly accept like a religion

              • Ron Roy

                I don’t accept anything without researching it first. MD’s have their place emergency surgery, setting broken bones and ………. well give me time I’ll think of something…………

                • David

                  Tell me one thing that naturopaths promote, that you reject

                  • Ron Roy

                    I can’t think of one. Although lean on the side of a good diet and nutritional supplements over homeopathic healing.

                • David

                  I would love to hear how you “research”. You have zero education, zero statistics knowledge and zero deductive reasoning
                  So tell us how you research something like homeopathy, such that you are positive it is effective

                  • Ron Roy

                    Gee tell me how you research? I mean besides googling.

                  • David

                    And there lies the problem. Your “research” is googling?!?

                  • Ron Roy

                    One of the best teachers I ever had said ” Knowing where to find the information is just as good as knowing it”.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    This is what one of your best teachers said ? Wow. Ronnyboy, let me lecture you: One can only use the knowledge one has. Knowing where to look things up doesn’t help anything in this scenario. The result are people like you who look up something ad are too stupid to realize the bullshit they are spreading.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Oh I see so the papers you allegedly co-authored that I found online are bullshit. Ok I get your point.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Oh I see so the papers you allegedly co-authored that I found online are bullshit. Ok I get your point.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Tommy unlike yourself I understand what I read. Now stop pretending to be a scientist your not very good at it.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    What was your last scientific paper ? Oh sorry, I forgot, you have none. BTW, it is either “unlike you” or “unlike you yourself” but not “unlike yourself”. Likewise, using “your” in that context is also wrong.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    What was your last scientific paper ? Oh sorry, I forgot, you have none. BTW, it is either “unlike you” or “unlike you yourself” but not “unlike yourself”. Likewise, using “your” in that context is also wrong.

                  • AutismDadd

                    After all Gorski has his hand up his backside!

                  • Ron Roy

                    Is that your best comeback? Come on I’ll give you one more chance to do better. Do you have some sort of fascination for bullshit? Or maybe the bull?

                  • AutismDadd

                    Sock Puppet hath spoken

                • Thomas Mohr

                  Ronnyboy, you are researching ? Where ? Google University ? Yahoo college ? Everything without knowledge about the state of scientific art ? Ronny, that is NOT research. That is collecting a huge heap of bullshit.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Great reply from someone who pretends to be educated.

                  • Ron Roy

                    ”scientific art”? Yes the way you vaccine pushers twist the truth requires some form of artistry therefor I think the term bullshit applies to whatever YOU say.

                  • https://www.hempista.com/cannabis-spa Hempista

                    Oh god I hate this anti-vaccination stuff. What a bunch of bunk. Not to mention that being against vaccines goes against all of your “natural” medical philosophy! Vaccines ARE TOTALLY NATURAL they are one of the most natural medicines available and have been in use for 1000 years! Humans have been practicing vaccinations since antiquity. It is not only a natural treatment but a proven science.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Oh yeah I remember seeing a carving,of a syringe,on a cave wall Indulging in a little too much hemp are you?

                  • AutismDadd

                    He’d make a good shoe shine boy for Paul Offit.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Natural treatment? You are daft

                  • https://www.hempista.com/cannabis-spa Hempista

                    Humans have been vaccinating each other since antiquity. Vaccination has had 1000 years of testing on billions of humans. It’s safe and effective in preventing disease and that’s why modern medicine still uses it. It’s one of the best and safest medical tools we have as humans. I’m sorry that your child has autism. It wasn’t the vaccines. You are going to do better by your child supporting autism research than you are fighting a vaccine war.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Antiquity? Hilarious. Early attempts were horrendous and we have 19 countries with vaccine injury compensation plans. Have a look at the serious reactions suffered by consumers, then think about what” safe” actually means

                  • https://www.hempista.com/cannabis-spa Hempista

                    You have google you can look it up–vaccination has been around since antiquity and although back then it was rather crude (like pulling scabs off of other people to feed to other people) people did it because it saved lives, lots of lives.

                    And guess what? Nothing is absolutely perfect. Even plain old aspirin has a body count. But 99.9% of the time both vaccination and aspirin have been effective medicine since humans started practicing medicine. You are the one that has fallen for a scam with this stupid anti-vax religion. And it is a religion.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Lame, its no religion. How many churches do we have? Do we have a bible? So nothing is perfect but if we want to discuss vaccine injury we are a cult.

                  • https://www.hempista.com/cannabis-spa Hempista

                    You have google you can look it up–vaccination has been around since antiquity and although back then it was rather crude (like pulling scabs off of other people to feed to other people) people did it because it saved lives, lots of lives.

                    And guess what? Nothing is absolutely perfect. Even plain old aspirin has a body count. But 99.9% of the time both vaccination and aspirin have been effective medicine since humans started practicing medicine. You are the one that has fallen for a scam with this stupid anti-vax religion. And it is a religion.

                  • AutismDadd

                    You called vaccines a natural treatment. Explain how it naturally is produced in a lab and injected, and how it by passes our first lines of defense.

                  • https://www.hempista.com/cannabis-spa Hempista

                    Would you like to go back to pulling scabs off of other people and eating those? While this was good medicine 500 years ago and really helped people a lot, I’d rather take something more purified and clean. I guess that’s just my personal thing about eating other people’s scabs. That’s just a little too ‘natural’ for me.

                    A lab is a clean place where we can make vaccine medicines out of natural viruses and bacteria. When you take a vaccine you are getting the clean version of what you would have 500 years ago. It’s still a natural medicine that teaches our immune systems what to look for so we can live longer. Yay for natural medicine like vaccines!

                  • AutismDadd

                    How ridiculous.

                  • AutismDadd

                    How ridiculous.

                  • https://www.hempista.com/cannabis-spa Hempista

                    Humans have been vaccinating each other since antiquity. Vaccination has had 1000 years of testing on billions of humans. It’s safe and effective in preventing disease and that’s why modern medicine still uses it. It’s one of the best and safest medical tools we have as humans. I’m sorry that your child has autism. It wasn’t the vaccines. You are going to do better by your child supporting autism research than you are fighting a vaccine war.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Natural treatment? You are daft

                  • AutismDadd

                    Told you Mohr was a fraud. His posts are dumber by the day.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Told you Mohr was a fraud. His posts are dumber by the day.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Beats the dumpster diving you do for trash science

                  • AutismDadd

                    Beats the dumpster diving you do for trash science

                • kissmetoad

                  Are you qualified to do research? Do you know one source from another?

                  • Ron Roy

                    OMG do you all have to use the same soundbites?

                  • Ron Roy

                    OMG do you all have to use the same soundbites?

                  • AutismDadd

                    As in toad is a source of brain farts?

                • kissmetoad

                  Are you qualified to do research? Do you know one source from another?

            • David

              Do you not realize yourself that you accept a 100 percent what is written in the naturopathic literature or found on your bogus websites and deny 100 percent what MD do? Do you not see the problem with this, namely how gullible you are. A good scientist questions everything they see, and looks over the evidence at the source. You just blindly accept like a religion

        • Thomas Mohr

          This is an anlysis of Hubers own data:

          https://natureworksbest.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Sugar-Cancer-Study.pdf

          Quote:
          “We treated with natural methods alone, choosing among methods with research established anti-neoplastic effect, both oral and intravenous, dietary and supplemented, nutritional and herbal, having a preference for those with high patient tolerance and compatibility, and varying with individual needs and tolerance, according to the standard naturopathic principle of “Treat the whole person.”

          The data are difficult to estimate but from the overall table one can conclude that there is complete information for 247 patients (excl iatrogenic deaths, unknown status, etc). Of these 78 died. Of these 13 died in the state of the art treatment arm and 65 died in the naturopathy arm (the numbers are estimated due to the lack of a both surgery and chemotherapy group, I assumed 50 to be in the state of the art treatment arm, accounting for 50% overlap between surgery and chemotherapy). Putting aside the ethical issues of the extremely bad study design, the lack of ethics committee approval or patients agrrement, a quick n’ dirty analysis of the data reveals following odds ratio: 2.1 (95% CI 1.01 – 4.40, p<0.05) in favour of state of the art treatment. I.o.W. patients under natural care only have a more than twofold higher risk to die.

          This is criminal.

          • Ron Roy

            What is criminal is giving people who have brain cancer false hope. The cure rate after putting them through emotional, physical and financial hell is less than 2%.

            • Thomas Mohr

              Thanks for confirming that naturopathic medicine in cancer is criminal. The cure rate for *any* cancer by use of naturopathic medicine (even if complementary) is NOT better than state-of the art therapy, and if you use naturopathic meidicne only it is far worse.

              • Ron Roy

                Wrong. You can’t cut, poison, or burn a body into health. Even if ”natural medicines ” don’t always work they at least don’t hinder the bodies natural healing process.

                • David

                  What about the black salve the naturopaths have been known to use. That does burn and poison the body literally

                  • Marcel
                  • David

                    Ron has no filter. As long as it is not part of the medical mafia, then it works.

                  • Ron Roy

                    I see you at least acknowledge that there is a MEDICAL MAFIA.

                  • David

                    Why does it not bother you that all the sites you look at are sponsored by big vitamin companies? Do you think they are somehow more ethical than big pharma? Even the American naturopathic college thanks companies for sponsoring them at the top of their website and has adds all over it for big vitamin companies ?? Talk about unethical?!! You don’t see the American medical association being sponsored by big pharma

                  • Ron Roy

                    Last I looked vitamin companies don’t ruin people’s health pharmaceutical companies do.

                  • David

                    You sure about that Ron. Vitamins are dangerous in lots of situations. Can inc or dec clotting. Can even inc mortalilty.
                    Here is a citation for you since you never provide any
                    http://archinte.jamanetwork.com/mobile/article.aspx?articleid=1105975

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    The main (and underestimated) effect is therapeutic delay, vz. Ezekiel Stephan. The problem is that one almost never gets those people on trial because the treatment is a decision of the patient.

                  • Ron Roy

                    It said increased risk and the percentages were low plus no real proof. I once suspected my father was taking too much vitamin A so I called the poison control center and they laughed at me and said what he was taking was just therapeutic. He was taking 75,000 units per day which even I at this point think is too much.

                  • kissmetoad

                    They’ve been saving my life for over 20 years.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Which ones the vitamin companies or the drug companies?

                  • Ron Roy

                    Which ones the vitamin companies or the drug companies?

                  • AutismDadd

                    Sorry to hear that

                  • David

                    Why does it not bother you that all the sites you look at are sponsored by big vitamin companies? Do you think they are somehow more ethical than big pharma? Even the American naturopathic college thanks companies for sponsoring them at the top of their website and has adds all over it for big vitamin companies ?? Talk about unethical?!! You don’t see the American medical association being sponsored by big pharma

                  • kissmetoad

                    umm, no, David’s usage was sarcasm.

                  • kissmetoad

                    umm, no, David’s usage was sarcasm.

                  • https://www.hempista.com/cannabis-spa Hempista

                    No there is not, but there is insurance company mafia and this is where a lot of the problems start with patients being able to access appropriate care.

                  • Ron Roy

                    I see you at least acknowledge that there is a MEDICAL MAFIA.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Yeah I took notice of the sites and organizations that are partially financed and bribed by the drug companies that make chemo. Yeah I noticed.

                  • David

                    So Ron. You even believe in black salve? You realize that it is more caustic than any chemo. It burns and destroys indiscriminately. Is their anything that naturopaths do that you do not believe in, or do you just accept it all?

                  • David

                    So Ron. You even believe in black salve? You realize that it is more caustic than any chemo. It burns and destroys indiscriminately. Is their anything that naturopaths do that you do not believe in, or do you just accept it all?

                  • David

                    Please show me a link to these sites where they have sponsorship by these companies. Why do you not acknowledge how guilty the naturopath sites have such corrupt influence by naturo pharma. They even thank them on their college site. That is beyond unethical

                  • JGC

                    In other words, “That evidence doesn’t count, because CONSPIRACY THEORY”?

                • Marcel

                  In other words, even though a cancer patient is at least twice as likely to die under treatment with so-called “natural medicines”, you think they are better off? And “cut, poison and burn”? The alarmist propaganda you apparently swallowed is highly outdated.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Brain cancer cure rate with Burzinski’s and or Naessens’ cancer cure substances 50%. Chemo cure rate less than 2%. Now what were you saying about twice as likely to die? Everyone of my relatives who were ” treated ” for cancer by conventional methods DIED of cancer.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    In two words: sceintific bullshit. I know such people personally, Jaroslaw Nowicki fpr instance with his Ukrain. It is the same here: neither Naessens nor Burzinski have published any reliabe data of their own and from what is known how cancer works their claims are bullshit.

                  • Ron Roy

                    ” bullshit” Is that a scientific answer?

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Where are your data ? Present them or be called a second time an idiot.

                  • Ron Roy

                    You’re in no position to call anyone an idiot. That would be like an inmate at an asylum calling the psychiatric staff crazy.

                  • Boris Ogon

                    You’re in no position to call anyone an idiot. That would be like an inmate at an asylum calling the psychiatric staff crazy.

                    Rosenhan experiment on line 2.

                  • Ron Roy

                    You’re in no position to call anyone an idiot. That would be like an inmate at an asylum calling the psychiatric staff crazy.

                  • AutismDadd

                    It does suit him doesn’t it?

                  • JGC

                    NO, brain cancer cure rates with Bursinski’s antineoplastons are completely unknown, because although registering more than 60 clinical trials he has only completed one and never published it’s results.
                    Why do you think that is?

                  • Ron Roy

                    I hear about his brain cancer cure rate many years ago when they has a tv special concerning him.

                  • JGC

                    And I’ve looked at his clinical trial filings registered with the CDC, his for the ant of a better word “publication record”, the publications of multiple independent researchers who have or are currently investigating sodium phenylbutyrate derivatives and metabolites, etc.

                    Burzynski has published no results that would even allow the determination of a cure rate, assuming that his treatment is helpful at all.

                    We do know, on the other hand, that it has caused the death of at least one of his ‘clients’ (6 year old Josiah Cotto) due to hyponatremia, common and serious side effect of receiving antineoplastons.

                    There really are only two possibilities with respect to Burzinski and antineoplastons:

                    They don’t work, and he knows they don’t work because that’s what the unpublished clinical trial results demonstrate, but he’s withheld publishing the results to continue taking desperate parents for everything they’ve got.
                    In which case he’s a con-man.

                    Or they actually do work, and he knows they work because that instead is what the unpublished clinical trial results demonstrate, but he’s withheld publishing the results

                    to maintain a lucrative monopoly on an effective cancer treatment rather than publishing it and making it available to everybody with cancer rather than those who can scrape up the tends of thousands of dollars to come to him alone for treatment.
                    In which case he’s a monster.

                  • Ron Roy

                    The con men are the ones pushing chemo. Even the nurses at a teaching hospital a friend went to for his cancer a few years ago privately told him to stay away from chemo.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    As I already said. 5 year survival in breast cancer with standard chemotherapy plus surgery: 80%, 5 year survival with your shit: 40%. Seen in the light of these figures, a nurse recommending against standard treatment should be fired immediately. Aside that, a nurse shall not recommend *any* treatment because in order to do so you have to be a doctor. Got it, Ronnyboy ?

                  • Ron Roy

                    That hospital would have had to fire them all. They witness the so called benefits of chemo and gave him advise accordingly. Oh he followed their advise and 10 years later he’s alive and well.

                  • Ron Roy

                    That hospital would have had to fire them all. They witness the so called benefits of chemo and gave him advise accordingly. Oh he followed their advise and 10 years later he’s alive and well.

                  • Ron Roy

                    5 year survival rate in spite of chemo. It’s a play on numbers ( see Jonathan I can use numbers also ) If they die 1 day after the five years they’re still put in the cured column.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Ronnyboy, 40 out of hundred women having listened to you and your ilk did not even survive to five years despite they could have been. Your bullshit: 60 out of hundred women die within 5 years, state of the art therapy: 20 out of 100 die. I.o.W. your busshit leads to 40 unecessary deaths. YOU are coresponsible for that. As for your boasting about your fitness: If I train 6 months I will beat you hands down. After 6 months of learning, you on the other hand will still be an ignorant.

                  • Ron Roy

                    “If I train 6 months I will beat you hands down.” Is this your attempt at humor? If not you’re on.

                  • Jonathan Graham

                    Can’t wait for you to chicken out on this one.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Johnny as long as I don’t have to pay any traveling expenses ( or possible medical expenses ) you can even help him and you will both lose.

                  • Jonathan Graham

                    Help him what? Watch you chicken out?

                  • Jonathan Graham

                    Help him what? Watch you chicken out?

                  • Jonathan Graham

                    Can’t wait for you to chicken out on this one.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Citations please.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    I have posted the citation earlier in this thread and will not repeat myself. Learn how to read, Ronnyboy. Additionally, where are YOUR citations Ronnyboy ? You still owe a LOT.

                  • Ron Roy

                    You’re a phony.

                  • Ron Roy

                    You’re a phony.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Don’t dare commit plagiarism again?

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Posting a citation is NEVER plagiarism

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    I have posted the citation earlier in this thread and will not repeat myself. Learn how to read, Ronnyboy. Additionally, where are YOUR citations Ronnyboy ? You still owe a LOT.

                  • David Wright

                    Ron, you don’t care about citations. You never read them and you never provide them.

                  • David Wright

                    Ron, you don’t care about citations. You never read them and you never provide them.

                  • Jonathan Graham

                    5 year survival rate in spite of chemo

                    You can’t make that claim because the people getting chemo are living longer than the people who don’t.

                    see Jonathan I can use numbers also

                    Let me know when that starts.

                    If they die 1 day after the five years they’re still put in the cured column.

                    Let’s say that you’re right and on average everyone dies 1 day after chemo. You realize that you still lose the argument right?

                  • Ron Roy

                    Let’s say that you’re right and on average everyone dies 1 day ( after 5 years ). You realize that you still lose the argument right?
                    Are you kidding me? I lose the argument? WOW your head is really up your ass isn’t it?

                  • Jonathan Graham

                    Are you kidding me? I lose the argument?

                    Yes. Are you saying you don’t see how?

                  • Ron Roy

                    Johnny you were born to lose.

                  • Jonathan Graham

                    In other words you don’t see how you lost. Want a hint?

                  • Ron Roy

                    yeah

                  • Jonathan Graham

                    In order for 80% of the people to be on average 1 day over five years. The spread of the data has to be pretty huge.

                  • Jonathan Graham

                    Are you kidding me? I lose the argument?

                    Yes. Are you saying you don’t see how?

                  • Jonathan Graham

                    5 year survival rate in spite of chemo

                    You can’t make that claim because the people getting chemo are living longer than the people who don’t.

                    see Jonathan I can use numbers also

                    Let me know when that starts.

                    If they die 1 day after the five years they’re still put in the cured column.

                    Let’s say that you’re right and on average everyone dies 1 day after chemo. You realize that you still lose the argument right?

                  • Ron Roy

                    5 year survival rate in spite of chemo. It’s a play on numbers ( see Jonathan I can use numbers also ) If they die 1 day after the five years they’re still put in the cured column.

                  • Jonathan Graham

                    Even a few unnameable nurses at an unnamed hospital? Said something vague and inaccurate about chemotherapy?!?! Oh no!

                  • Ron Roy

                    Dartmouth Hitchcock memorial hospital in Lebanon NH

                  • Jonathan Graham

                    …and the nurses full names? Or do we call the hospital and ask if they have nurses and if they say “yes” then we consider your story confirmed?

                  • Ron Roy

                    Yeah nice try even if I knew their names do you really think I would rat them out? I knew a nurse years ago that would flush pills, she was supposed to give residents at a nursing home, if she knew they would cause more harm than good. When my mother was in a nursing home she all of a sudden became lethargic so my sister and I assumed it was due to her age but a nurse advised us to tell those in charge to eliminate a couple ” medications ” she was on and they did and within a day she was back to her old feisty self. My point is nurses tend to be more prone to tell the truth than doctors because they have very little, if any, monetary incentives to conceal the truth.

                  • Jonathan Graham

                    Yeah nice try even if I knew their names do you really think I would rat them out?

                    Ron, you get there is a point here right? Your story isn’t worth anything. Even if it isn’t made up – which is probably is (or perhaps it’s a retelling of someone else’s story).

                    knew a nurse years ago that would flush pills, she was supposed to give residents at a nursing home, if she knew they would cause more harm than good

                    Why is this story worth anything?

                    When my mother was in a nursing home she all of a sudden became lethargic so my sister and I assumed it was due to her age but a nurse advised us to tell those in charge to eliminate a couple ” medications ” she was on and they did and within a day she was back to her old feisty self.

                    …or this one? Yawn.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Dartmouth Hitchcock memorial hospital in Lebanon NH

                  • Jonathan Graham

                    Even a few unnameable nurses at an unnamed hospital? Said something vague and inaccurate about chemotherapy?!?! Oh no!

                  • JGC

                    Ron, why is it that the only evidence you can offer in support of your claims are anecdotal or supposed personal testimony from a FOAF?

                  • JGC

                    Ron, why is it that the only evidence you can offer in support of your claims are anecdotal or supposed personal testimony from a FOAF?

                  • JGC

                    And I’ve looked at his clinical trial filings registered with the CDC, his for the ant of a better word “publication record”, the publications of multiple independent researchers who have or are currently investigating sodium phenylbutyrate derivatives and metabolites, etc.

                    Burzynski has published no results that would even allow the determination of a cure rate, assuming that his treatment is helpful at all.

                    We do know, on the other hand, that it has caused the death of at least one of his ‘clients’ (6 year old Josiah Cotto) due to hyponatremia, common and serious side effect of receiving antineoplastons.

                    There really are only two possibilities with respect to Burzinski and antineoplastons:

                    They don’t work, and he knows they don’t work because that’s what the unpublished clinical trial results demonstrate, but he’s withheld publishing the results to continue taking desperate parents for everything they’ve got.
                    In which case he’s a con-man.

                    Or they actually do work, and he knows they work because that instead is what the unpublished clinical trial results demonstrate, but he’s withheld publishing the results

                    to maintain a lucrative monopoly on an effective cancer treatment rather than publishing it and making it available to everybody with cancer rather than those who can scrape up the tends of thousands of dollars to come to him alone for treatment.
                    In which case he’s a monster.

                  • David

                    So why do you believe a tv special and not peer reviewed journals

                  • Ron Roy

                    Peer review journals are heavily biased whereas 20 /20 or 60 minutes are more open and since they have a much greater viewership less likely to lie.

                • Petticoat Philosopher

                  When my appendix tried to kill me, my body’s “natural healing process” wasn’t of much use to me. I’m pretty glad the surgeon and her team were able to “cut” my body into health!

                  • Ron Roy

                    Petticoat Philosopher a new name for an old shill. I never said doctors were TOTALLY useless. There are rare cases when an emergency situations will arise where they can help but overall they cause far more harm than good. Thanks to their medical school miseducation.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    In one word: bullshit.

                  • Petticoat Philosopher

                    Oh? Pray tell, which “old shill” am I? What skin do you think I have in this game?

                    Appendicitis is not rare. It’s fairly common and it’s deadly. And where do you draw the line between an emergency situation and a non-emergency situation? It’s not always obvious. I went to the ER with my abdominal pain because I’d spoken to a nurse at my doctor’s office over the phone, when I began to run a fever, and she had told me to go “just in case.” (She tried to play it cool to not scare me but when I, cockily used to good health as a 20-something with no prior major health problems, tried to say “well, maybe I can just take some ibuprofen and wait s day?” she basically had to say “No, I am not kidding. Go to the ER.”)

                    So I went, thinking they’d probably see me, tell me I’ve got some sort of no-big-deal infection or something and send me home with a prescription. I certainly never suspected that I had a time bomb in my abdomen, that this was an actual emergency. (Again, not used to actual emergencies due to being lucky and young.) I didn’t think I wasn’t going to leave the hospital until over 24 hours later minus an internal organ. If I hadn’t listened to the advice of the nurse, if I had an inherent mistrust of medicine unless it’s an “emergency,” I wouldn’t have gone to the ER. And I’d quite likely have ended up dead. At 26 and otherwise healthy.

                    The point is, you don’t know what counts as an emergency. I don’t either. That’s why it’s important to trust the people who get extensive education to be able to make those kinds of calls and act to save lives when they have to. Fomenting categorical distrust of medical professionals is dangerous. That attitude could have killed me.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Over 300,000 people per year die from properly and improperly prescribed medications and infections from hospital stays. Now since, according to a medical journal ( I forgot which one but I can look it up ) since only 10 % of all adverse events are reported by doctors those figures are more than likely much higher.

                  • kissmetoad

                    Science based medicine has refuted the 300,000 deaths thing–that number is totally out of context. Hospital infection rates have improved dramatically becaue that’s the way real health care works. REAL problems are recognized and steps are taken to improve the situation.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Sciencebasedmedicine Now there’s a reputable site / organization. NOT! Gorski is the number one pharmaceutical paid shill. Shall I list all the sites / newspapers / organizations that disagree with him?

                  • JGC

                    No–what you need to do is provide credible evidence that Gorski is paid by large pharmaceutical companies to post content on his blog that support science based medicine.
                    Either that, or abandon the whole pharma shill gambit once and for all.

                  • Ron Roy

                    If it looks like a quack, talks like a quack and looks like a quack it’s a Gorski shill. And no I will not abandon the pharma shill gambit. I will keep exposing quacks for the rest of my life.

                  • JGC

                    In order to expose Gorski or anyone else as a “pharma shills” you will need to present actual evidence that they’ve actually accepted payment to publish articles which presents data which benefits the pharmaceutical companies paying them.

                    Got any?

                    If not, you aren’t exposing anyone–you’re simply calling them names.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Well, it so happens
                    Sanofi-Aventis – the world’s largest vaccine maker – is involved in
                    several partnerships under which the company may be required to pay a
                    total of €31 million ($39 million USD) from 2008 to 2013. Gorski’s
                    employer, Wayne State University, is one of the partners, and he is
                    conducting a clinical trial of one of the company’s drugs. Therefore,
                    like Offit (who concealed the millions he received in Merck royalty
                    payments because Merck paid the royalties to a third party, not Offit
                    directly) Gorski has a reasonable expectation to receive money from a
                    vaccine maker, even if it is through a third party. A look at the
                    summary description of the Gorski Lab reveals that his research focus is
                    drug discovery and development. However, he is not developing a new
                    drug, but rather, developing new uses for an existing one. Such a
                    process is far more profitable to the drug manufacturer as it eliminates
                    the costs of developing a new substance from scratch, thereby
                    maximizing profits for the company.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    You know that all this doesn’t make your scientific bullshit correct, do you ?

                  • Ron Roy

                    Great rebuttal from a phony scientist.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Great rebuttal from a phony scientist.

                  • JGC

                    I’ve addressed Jake’s conspiracy theory regarding Groski and Sanofi-Aventis in a post above. Follow the attached link to see why this fails to constitute credible evidence Gorski is a “pharma shill” or otherwise inappropriately biased in favor of Sanofi.

                  • JGC

                    I’ve addressed Jake’s conspiracy theory regarding Groski and Sanofi-Aventis in a post above. Follow the attached link to see why this fails to constitute credible evidence Gorski is a “pharma shill” or otherwise inappropriately biased in favor of Sanofi.

                  • http://perfectlycrazydragon.tumblr.com/ “Shill Gambit” = PTW

                    Here’s a hint for Ron Roy:

                    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/fc8d4e20da0f74b4b662855fd4543bb4d117db7885cd5b67fa28a3e9944ca748.jpg

                    Since he’s so much smarter than global expert consensus…I am sure he can find a way to adapt this to disqus.

                  • Ron Roy
                  • JGC

                    Ron, I asked for credible evidence, remember?

                    Not for a repeat Jake Crosby’s conspiracy-theory accusation that simply because Gorski conducted research involving a drug
                    manufactured by Sanofi-Aventis (Rilutek) he must be on their payroll or otherwise baised in their support. Jake’s empty claim Gorski is in Sanofi’s pocket because he once looked at on of the drugs it markets ahs all but achieved the status of a PRATT at this point in time.

                    Gorski has never received any funding or other compensation from Sanofi Aventis: his research is instead underwritten entirely by academic funds, and non-pharma agencies like the DoD, the National Cancer Institute, the ASCO Foundation, and the Breast Cancer Research Foundation.

                    Sanofi didn’t even supply him the Rilutek needed to conduct his research free of charge when he was conducting the studies.

                    (see https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/in-which-i-am-once-again-in-the-crosshairs-of-age-of-autisms-pharma-shill-machine-gun/
                    for more detail)

                  • JGC

                    Ron, I asked for credible evidence, remember?

                    Not for a repeat Jake Crosby’s conspiracy-theory accusation that simply because Gorski conducted research involving a drug
                    manufactured by Sanofi-Aventis (Rilutek) he must be on their payroll or otherwise baised in their support. Jake’s empty claim Gorski is in Sanofi’s pocket because he once looked at on of the drugs it markets ahs all but achieved the status of a PRATT at this point in time.

                    Gorski has never received any funding or other compensation from Sanofi Aventis: his research is instead underwritten entirely by academic funds, and non-pharma agencies like the DoD, the National Cancer Institute, the ASCO Foundation, and the Breast Cancer Research Foundation.

                    Sanofi didn’t even supply him the Rilutek needed to conduct his research free of charge when he was conducting the studies.

                    (see https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/in-which-i-am-once-again-in-the-crosshairs-of-age-of-autisms-pharma-shill-machine-gun/
                    for more detail)

                  • Ron Roy

                    Sciencebasedmedicine Now there’s a reputable site / organization. NOT! Gorski is the number one pharmaceutical paid shill. Shall I list all the sites / newspapers / organizations that disagree with him?

                  • AutismDadd

                    If infection rates had improved more would die clown

                  • JGC

                    If we accept this claim as true you have a numerator. You’re still in need of a denominator, though, if you want to determine relative risk: how many people per year have their health improve/diseases cured/chronic symptoms managed by properly prescribed medications and in-patient hospital treatments?

                  • Ron Roy

                    In EXTREMELY rare cases a drug might help but overall if doctors practice HEALTH CARE instead of DISEASE CARE the human race would be a lot better off. Our bodies function on nutrients NOT drugs.

                  • JGC

                    Exactly what percentage of all cases does all caps “EXTREMELY rare” work out to be, and exactly how have you accurately determined this value is accurate? Show your math.

                  • Ron Roy

                    I unlike yourself and your cohorts don’t think of people being harmed by conventional ” medicine” on terms of just a number. Anyone who pays just a little attention as to the results doctors get with their ” medicines” can see they cause more problems than they solve. Anyone watching television can see the adds by lawyers asking if anyone has had a bad reaction to. Small sample:Xarelto, Risperdal, Actos.Paxil, Yasmin, Vioxx etc. etc. etc..All these drugs supposedly had gone through all the testing required by the FDA before being put on the market. I can list a lot more if need be.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    You are aware that these are professional litigators relying on the US judicial system ? Do you know why they can do that ?

                  • Ron Roy

                    Do you know why they can do that ? Yes because people have been seriously harmed by pharmaceuticals because if they hadn’t those lawyers could be charged for frivolous lawsuits.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Do you know why they can do that ? Yes because people have been seriously harmed by pharmaceuticals because if they hadn’t those lawyers could be charged for frivolous lawsuits.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Because of corruption what else?

                  • AutismDadd

                    Because of corruption what else?

                  • JGC

                    ‘Anyone watching television can see the adds by lawyers asking if anyone has had a bad reaction to”
                    I’m sorry, but are you seriously arguing that because lawyers are chasing ambulances for clients science based medical interventions must do more harm than good?

                  • JGC

                    ‘Anyone watching television can see the adds by lawyers asking if anyone has had a bad reaction to”
                    I’m sorry, but are you seriously arguing that because lawyers are chasing ambulances for clients science based medical interventions must do more harm than good?

                  • AutismDadd

                    That’s business as usual for Big Pharma. They settle out of court by paying a fraction of the profits in fines and compensation, making it a successful product.

                  • https://www.hempista.com/cannabis-spa Hempista

                    So, as a rare disease patient I, more than you, have way more credibility to speak about MDs and the crappy treatment I have been through with DOZENS of doctors. It wasn’t until I was placed in the Stanford system with doctors that actually treat rare disease that doctors started doing the right stuff for me. There is no naturopath that has the cure for my illness IT IS GENETIC. I can’t imaging having some dofus selling expensive vitamins and herbs from their office having any answers that the best medical minds in the world at Stanford have.

                  • Marcel

                    Rare cases? Like what? Rabies? Broken bones? Heart attacks? Psychotic episodes? Malaria? Yellow fever? Venomous snake bites? Third degree burn wounds? Severe allergic reactions? Look up the incidence rates for those and tell me they are rare. Then call up some naturopaths and tell me you need treatment right away, but won’t go to a physician because they cause more harm than good.

                  • https://www.hempista.com/cannabis-spa Hempista

                    Rare disease patient here. One thing people do not understand about rare or orphan disease is that they are not so rare after all. We get all of the off-label cutting edge treatments at places like Stanford, but there are many of us! It’s just that the disease we have is rare.

                • Petticoat Philosopher

                  When my appendix tried to kill me, my body’s “natural healing process” wasn’t of much use to me. I’m pretty glad the surgeon and her team were able to “cut” my body into health!

                • AutismDadd

                  Had a friend who had stomach cancer. They took out 3/4 of his stomach. He couldn’t do anything and could barely eat. Died 6 months later. He presented with a sore throat at first. Then he had 6 months of Hell before he died. Not impressed.

                • https://www.hempista.com/cannabis-spa Hempista

                  Guess what? Sometimes old buildings have to be torn down in order for new and better ones to take their place. Sometimes that means slapping down the “natural healing” process of the body with immune suppressing drugs. Some people have immune systems that do not conform to your naturopathic way of thinking–some of us have immune systems that are bad cops and need to have the hell slapped out of them. I am thankful for the rheumatologists and oncologists who do just that! Happy to be alive and posting here!

              • AutismDadd

                meidicine? Idiot

            • David

              You still didn’t respond about the tissue destroying black salve. Anytime you are proven wrong you just close your eyes and pretend it didn’t happen

              • Ron Roy

                Black salve I’ll have to do some research. I don’t know everything you know.

                • Boris Ogon

                  It’s great for hemorrhoids. Go for it.

                  • has

                    You are a cruel and horrible man. Have an upvote.

                    (Obligatory disclaimer for alt-med fools: do not do this unless you want internal organs in your stool.)

                  • Ron Roy

                    So I could put it on you and you would go away?

                  • Ron Roy

                    So I could put it on you and you would go away?

                  • AutismDadd

                    I don’t thin Boris can come out into the sunlight

                • Ron Roy

                  I did some research on black salve and from what I read all the negative comments were never proven. The main ingredient is blood root which I have in tincture form and I would use it without fear.

                  • David Wright

                    Did you look at any pics of people who used it?

                  • David

                    You were the one saying chemo burns and destroys. That is exactly what black salve does. It burns and destroy health and unhealthy tissue. Yet again, you have no filter. You can’t reject anything In mainstream medicine , we drop things as they are found not to work …like bloodletting ! In your world, the older and more useless the treatment, the better

                  • Ron Roy

                    The black salve did nothing of the sort. It may or may not work on skin cancers but the holes seen in peoples bodies were due to cancers abd not the salve. The most potent thing in those salves is blood root and I’ve used blood root topically with no problems at all.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Again two words: absolute bullshit. Black salve is an escharotic which means that it burns away tissue leaving thes horrible holes observed.

                  • David

                    Please explain the mechanism of action of black salve Ron Roy

            • Mike Stevens

              That would be the Burzynski “cure rate” for brain cancer.

        • Thomas Mohr

          This is an anlysis of Hubers own data:

          https://natureworksbest.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Sugar-Cancer-Study.pdf

          Quote:
          “We treated with natural methods alone, choosing among methods with research established anti-neoplastic effect, both oral and intravenous, dietary and supplemented, nutritional and herbal, having a preference for those with high patient tolerance and compatibility, and varying with individual needs and tolerance, according to the standard naturopathic principle of “Treat the whole person.”

          The data are difficult to estimate but from the overall table one can conclude that there is complete information for 247 patients (excl iatrogenic deaths, unknown status, etc). Of these 78 died. Of these 13 died in the state of the art treatment arm and 65 died in the naturopathy arm (the numbers are estimated due to the lack of a both surgery and chemotherapy group, I assumed 50 to be in the state of the art treatment arm, accounting for 50% overlap between surgery and chemotherapy). Putting aside the ethical issues of the extremely bad study design, the lack of ethics committee approval or patients agrrement, a quick n’ dirty analysis of the data reveals following odds ratio: 2.1 (95% CI 1.01 – 4.40, p<0.05) in favour of state of the art treatment. I.o.W. patients under natural care only have a more than twofold higher risk to die.

          This is criminal.

        • https://www.hempista.com/cannabis-spa Hempista

          What an idiotic thing to say. I would be dead right now if it were not for oncologists at Stanford. Are you here to shame patients with real illnesses?

    • Kathy

      Where is that?

    • https://www.hempista.com/cannabis-spa Hempista

      Yah, I went over to read what you guys were talking about in regards to her and uh..well it’s against everything the Stanford doctors told me to do while on radiation or chemo.

      As a patient my first reaction to having to get these treatments was “oh shit, I better go out and buy a bunch of vitamins and immune-strengthening herbs and foods and stuff.” lol well the oncologist disabused me of all of that right off the bat and told me that they were demolishing the old buildings in my body and that taking vitamins and stuff like that actually FEEDS the tumors and strengthens an over active immune system which is not what needed to happen in order for me to get better. So I listened to the doctor and just let them do their jobs. It worked! 🙂

    • https://www.hempista.com/cannabis-spa Hempista

      Yah, I went over to read what you guys were talking about in regards to her and uh..well it’s against everything the Stanford doctors told me to do while on radiation or chemo.

      As a patient my first reaction to having to get these treatments was “oh shit, I better go out and buy a bunch of vitamins and immune-strengthening herbs and foods and stuff.” lol well the oncologist disabused me of all of that right off the bat and told me that they were demolishing the old buildings in my body and that taking vitamins and stuff like that actually FEEDS the tumors and strengthens an over active immune system which is not what needed to happen in order for me to get better. So I listened to the doctor and just let them do their jobs. It worked! 🙂

  • DeeCeeEm

    Optometrists sell what they prescribe (eyeglasses and contact lenses). How do they make sure their behavior is ethical?

    • PrimaryCareDoc

      I don’t think that they’re making claims about the superior refractive powers of their lenses.

      • Thomas Mohr

        And if they do, it can easily be checked.

      • DeeCeeEm

        Of course not. It’s just that optometrists are respected health care professionals and if naturopaths wanted to clean up their act, perhaps they could get some inspiration from another profession that prescribes and sells at the same time.

        • David

          Optometrists have been getting rocked by online businesses. It is questionable if they have actually been that ethical in that they have had monster mark ups on their glasses. Their business was ripe for the picking by online businesses that sell glasses at a fraction of the price

          • Sonja Henie

            Here in the US many people take their prescriptions and go to places like Target, even Walmart. All the optometrists sell glasses, however, and WM and Target have optometrists, too.

            • kissmetoad

              Some optometrists in my city work at hospital clinics where no dispensing is done. They will refer you to a dispensing optician if you ask, but it comes with a disclaimer.

            • kissmetoad

              Some optometrists in my city work at hospital clinics where no dispensing is done. They will refer you to a dispensing optician if you ask, but it comes with a disclaimer.

          • BatwingCandlewaxxe

            I disagree here. Look at the reviews for those online businesses that sell glasses cheaply. The quality is, at best, highly variable; especially if you have a prescription with any kind of complexity. Their tolerances are far wider, and it’s very likely that your glasses will not work as well as the ones you get from the optometrist (if your read the fine print on their websites, they generally list the expected variation of their products, which is huge). I have friends with complex prescriptions who have gone to the cut rate places, and none had any good things to say about them.

            • David

              I generally agree with you that glasses are a medical device rather than a supplement. Someone else was using optometrists as an example.
              However there are some nuances where an optometrist can be unethical. For example they could sell you on prescription reading glasses for a couple of hundred dollars when dollar store glasses would have been adequate. They can sell you on various coatings and other bells and whistles that make them lots of money but may not be needed. Also I do not think the markups are standard across the board. In addition some optometrists push products for which there is little evidence for such as various vitamins and even cataract dissolving drops.
              In general, I would not want to lump optoms in the same basket as naturopaths and chiros—but someone else brought them up so I commented

              • kissmetoad

                My mother’s opthomologist prescribes those vitamins and the cataract drops. I found the evidence for the vitamins moderate and passed on her behalf, but we do the drops. This guy has a real “mill” going with masses of assistants/aides doing a lot of the work and he sells frames as well; he specializes in the Medicare crowd and does a lot of cataract surgery, which to be fair, he tries to prevent with the drops.

                • David

                  There is zero evidence for cataract drops. Do not waste your money. I am actually shocked that there is an ophthalmologist pushing those drops.

                • David

                  There is zero evidence for cataract drops. Do not waste your money. I am actually shocked that there is an ophthalmologist pushing those drops.

                • AutismDadd

                  Yea and that’s the medical profession, the one you sing the praises for

              • kissmetoad

                My mother’s opthomologist prescribes those vitamins and the cataract drops. I found the evidence for the vitamins moderate and passed on her behalf, but we do the drops. This guy has a real “mill” going with masses of assistants/aides doing a lot of the work and he sells frames as well; he specializes in the Medicare crowd and does a lot of cataract surgery, which to be fair, he tries to prevent with the drops.

            • David

              You are right and you are wrong. Of course hands on optoms and optometrist measurements for glasses are going to yield better outcomes. However, online business has crushed many optoms businesses.

              • kissmetoad

                I read that less than half of online customers are happy with their glasses–still, that means that a good many are also satisfied. Time will tell if they can increase their base. Don’t know if they’re “crushing”, but my optician d-in-law says her employer has felt the pinch–and lowered prices.

              • kissmetoad

                I read that less than half of online customers are happy with their glasses–still, that means that a good many are also satisfied. Time will tell if they can increase their base. Don’t know if they’re “crushing”, but my optician d-in-law says her employer has felt the pinch–and lowered prices.

            • Terrie_S

              Mine is complex enough (high myopia and stigmatism) that I can’t even find an online place that will do my lenses. Heck, mine is complex enough I even notice the difference between the brick-and-morter chains who are big enough to have an in-house lens production and the high quality boutiques who gets their lenses from speciality companies like Zeiss.

          • Terrie_S

            There’s no monster markup. There IS a massive difference in quality. For mild perscriptions, it won’t make much difference, but if you have a complex perscription, you will find that either 1) online stores cannot even fill or perscription or 2) the results are a worthles waste of money.

    • David

      That is actually a very good point! I am an ophthalmologist in Canada and we are not allowed to sell glasses as it is considered unethical. Until recently, optometrists mainly did refractions and eye health exams, but almost no treatment. Now that they are trying to expand their scope of practice and essentially practice as a nonsurgical ophthalmologist….the ethics of them selling products and glasses should be more scrutinized. Maybe EBMOD will see this and make a comment as he is an optometrist.

      • BatwingCandlewaxxe

        I don’t really see a problem with it, as long as they’re not trying to mark up the lenses and frames insanely (and there are plenty of places online to get frames). It’s really not possible to sell someone glasses they don’t need, since any person in control of their faculties knows if they can see something or not, and can tell if the glasses work or not the moment they put them on.

      • kissmetoad

        Many opthamologists in the US (in my state anyway) dispense glasses on their premises. I think the only caveat is that there is no direct pushing the patient. The rx is given without comment and the patient chooses whether to stop in the showroom or go elsewhere. It can be very convenient for the elderly to get the glasses at the same place they see the doctor for their regualr exams/treatment.

    • Kathy

      All of the optometrists I have seen, in 20 years, have not owned the eyeglass stores they are attached with. They are in-house providers but they do not own the rest. The eye glass stores are separate businesses.

      • Sonja Henie

        All of them that I have been to, in the past 50+ years of needing corrective lenses, have sold glasses as well. When I was a kid, you just naturally got your glasses at the eye dr’s office. Later, places like Pearl Vision and the like came along, but the eye doctors I’ve gone to have still sold stuff in their offices. They may be separate businesses, but the expectation is you’ll buy from them. I always ask for a prescription b/c we’ve gone to the same optician for years, who now has an eye doctor in HIS office!

        • Kathy

          Well, yes, the do expect you will buy your glasses from them. LOL That is true. I mostly do because it is convenient. I am not aware of any opticians in cities in Western WA that only sell glasses, don’t have eye exams in there. It’s funny, but I choose the eye doctor based on the eye glass store. I figure the eye exam is not rocket science but the quality of care in fitting lenses, choices in frames, etc, that is the important part.

          • Kathy

            And if I have a real problem, I do see an ophthalmologist

            • kfunk937

              Yeah, I was kinda confused on your conversation about “eye doctors” ’cause optometrists and ophthalmologists are not the same thing.

              One of the many things I did in my youth was to work for an optometrist (for like 2 weeks, for free) to fit and, more to the point, sell glasses. No creds required.

              Ophthalmologists, on the other hand, can detect diseases that manifest in the eye, and trace them to their source. Sometimes, they’re the ones that point them out. Yeah, they also tend to sell glasses in their offices, but an optometrist is still unlikely to have staff that points out serious disease.

              • kissmetoad

                An opthamologist is a medical doctor with specialty training. An optometrist is an eye specialist, but not an MD. Either can prescribe lenses and dispense them with frames.

            • kissmetoad

              And any legitimate optometrist would be the first to recommend that.

              • https://vaccinesworkblog.wordpress.com/2016/07/10/a-provaxer-watched-vaxxed/ Kathy

                Yep, I have never seen an ophthamologist in my life until last spring when I had a blocked eyelash pore that would not get better and started to cause an astygmatism! Got an appt with optometrist same day, referral to ophthamologist next day. Was well cared for, all better now.

          • BatwingCandlewaxxe

            My old optician did not sell glasses in his office. There wasn’t even a shop nearby.

            This is a bad analogy, however, as glasses are completely different from supplements/remedies. Glasses require a lot of highly specialized equipment to produce, and the effects are obvious and immediate. If you have bad glasses, you will know the moment you put them on. There is really no impetus for optometrists to try to sell you glasses you don’t need.

            Glasses are not even remotely the same, in fact. They are more like medical equipment — crutches, wheelchairs, joint braces, etc. Most of these are provided by hospitals, but we don’t see people complaining about that, because the need for them is patently obvious. Markups on lenses are pretty standard industry-wide; while frames vary widely. One can always find inexpensive frames alongside the designer stuff. That’s a fashion choice, not a functional one.

          • kissmetoad

            The eye exam may not be rocket science, but optometrists are well-trained (four years, usually post BA, training at an optometry college (this is akin to pharmacy or dentistry, not chiropractic or naturopathy). They are very well-trained in eye issues and well aware of when to refer to ophthalmologist. Optician can be someone who grinds lenses or simply someone who can read prescriptions and helps select frames, adjusts them and such–depends on training.

      • kissmetoad

        I have been to a couple of optometrists who own the place, but so what? As long as they properly assess your vision needs and give you your prescription to take wherever you wish, what does it matter if she owns the place or just works there?

    • Beth H

      I think a difference may be in that in optometry,what is prescribed is not life or death or quality of life per se. If one needs “more” than just glasses/contacts you would go to more than just an optometrist.

      This year will be the first time I have had to purchases glasses retail in over 10 years (due to insurance). Have never had an issue of buying my glasses elsewhere due to cost.

    • Mike Stevens

      Dentists sell toothpaste, toothbrushes and floss.
      In fact at my dentist they give away small tubes of toothpaste for free.
      Now why would they do that….

      • Sonja Henie

        My dentist gives you a toothbrush and floss at each cleaning. Even though I use electric, I take them. When I worked, I kept one at the office. I keep one in my spare bathroom, and I keep them for overnight guests who forget their toothbrushes, like my grown daughter.

      • kissmetoad

        I have never, ever been sold anything by a dentist–and I’ve seen dozens (move a lot) in several states. Free samples, yes, selling, no. They do it to encourage good dental hygiene. The samples are provided by the manufacturer to plug their brand. Any dentist I’ve asked about the brand given to me has always said that it makes no difference–(s)he just gives out this brand because they’re free from the rep.

        • AutismDadd

          Very suspicious

        • Ron Roy

          Everyone today is sold something by a dentists. It’s called mandatory x-rays which were never used in the past. There’s only one dentists in my area who doesn’t insist on x-rays.

          • Jonathan Graham

            Personally I’ve never had an x-ray unless there is some indicator of a problem. Dental costs me next to nothing. So the risk evaluation is pretty much in favor of x-rays. The only thing I’ve experienced dentists try to push is anesthetic.

          • Jonathan Graham

            Personally I’ve never had an x-ray unless there is some indicator of a problem. Dental costs me next to nothing. So the risk evaluation is pretty much in favor of x-rays. The only thing I’ve experienced dentists try to push is anesthetic.

    • kissmetoad

      The difference is that the optometrist puts prescription lenses that are based on valid tests into the frames that s(he) sells you.

  • Kathy

    I do agree that the naturopath running a dispensary is a concern because they do tend to expect every patient is going to leave with supplements they sell. At least that has been my experience from my 20 years of naturopathy treatment. ( I don’t go anymore, don’t attack me)

  • Travis

    Ah, only just noticed this article.

    You might want to archive each of your links. Shady businesses or people tend to shadily remove (or edit) articles without ethical notification/explanation. Notice how you explained what your correction was at the end? Liars don’t do that

  • David

    It’s so crazy in my neck of the woods. The naturopaths lobbied for rights for meds and even injections and the medical community basically ignored them. Well they got their priveleges and the main thing they use it for is cosmetic injections and lAser. Anything for a buck
    http://www.salveoclinic.ca/ns_breastaugmentation.html

    • Sonja Henie

      At least they’re not trying to treat really sick people.

      • David

        Actually this link I placed above on this guy doing fillers for breast enlargement….brings up a very important subject that Britt should keep in her info banks as ammunition against inc scope of practice. First off it is ridiculous that they are doing Botox and fillers….should that not go against everything a naturopath believes in?
        More important though is the problem with self regulation. The above culprit got caught and admitted to injecting non sterile fake juvaderm into multiple patients. The naturopathic board gave him a 1 week suspension. Is go to Hawaii for a week and come back and practice as normal
        I can tell you that if I did that, I would lose my license and probably have criminal fraud charges against me.
        http://www.cnpbc.bc.ca/wp-content/uploads/10-2015-Consent-Order-Strauss-A1.pdf

      • David

        Actually this link I placed above on this guy doing fillers for breast enlargement….brings up a very important subject that Britt should keep in her info banks as ammunition against inc scope of practice. First off it is ridiculous that they are doing Botox and fillers….should that not go against everything a naturopath believes in?
        More important though is the problem with self regulation. The above culprit got caught and admitted to injecting non sterile fake juvaderm into multiple patients. The naturopathic board gave him a 1 week suspension. Is go to Hawaii for a week and come back and practice as normal
        I can tell you that if I did that, I would lose my license and probably have criminal fraud charges against me.
        http://www.cnpbc.bc.ca/wp-content/uploads/10-2015-Consent-Order-Strauss-A1.pdf

    • Sonja Henie

      At least they’re not trying to treat really sick people.

  • https://www.hempista.com/cannabis-spa Hempista

    I take thyroid hormone (the natural desiccated kind Nature Throid which is only available by prescription from a pharmacy) prescribed by an MD–I like the natural one because Synthroid makes me feel like crap. I’m glad my Endo will prescribe it. Thyroid hormones are freakin’ dangerous though without exact measurements and standards that you get with the pharma kind. You can have ‘natural’ and pharma too–but it needs to be a prescription from a pharmacy not OTC directly at the doctors office,lol, no real doctor sells thyroid hormones from their office. Furthermore, thyroid hormone, the ‘natural’ desiccated kind when it is by prescription from the pharmacy is CHEAP and one of the cheapest brand drugs you can buy. My natural desiccated thyroid is $10 at the pharmacy–before insurance! But you see, I have a real illness, Hashimotos, and not some made-up syndrome by an ND pushing OTC glandulars.

    • Ron Roy

      Your parents must have had a terrible diet in order to produce an offspring who’s that sick or it was vaccines that screwed you up or a combination of both.

      • David Wright

        Or something else.

        You have anything of value to support your claim? (Poor diet, vaccines, or a combination of both)

        I can’t get over how many times you and AD have been proven wrong.

        I’d get a higher test score using the one potato two potato method of choosing an answer than you two combined.

        Thankfully your both completely irrelevant in any serious conversation.
        One liners and all CAPS aren’t proof of anything.

        • AutismDadd

          Keep patting yourself on the back, its all you’ll ever get. Oh and I see you are a sockie of shill gambit

          • David Wright

            So no citation.

          • David Wright

            So no citation.

            • AutismDadd

              Keep patting hero

              • David Wright

                STILL no citations. I guess you’re pleading the fifth.

                • Thomas Mohr

                  You will never get citations from AutismDadd. He knows why. All citations he might present will be blasted out of the water immediately by *real* scientists present here.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Real scientists? Where? did I miss something?

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    You indeed missed something. God distributing intelligence and learning ability, f.i.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Says the phony scientist who put his name, undeservedly, on two or was it three papers in a lifetime.

                  • Ron Roy

                    Says the phony scientist who put his name, undeservedly, on two or was it three papers in a lifetime.

                  • David Wright

                    Very true.

        • Ron Roy

          Hey you gave me an idea thanks. When vaccinating a baby it’s one potato two potato as to whether any immediate physical harm will occur. And thank you for contributing absolutely nothing to a serious conversation, except for the idea you just gave me.

      • https://www.hempista.com/cannabis-spa Hempista

        You are a vile piece of garbage. You really have your head up your ass. Go play in traffic.

      • https://www.hempista.com/cannabis-spa Hempista

        You are a vile piece of garbage. You really have your head up your ass. Go play in traffic.

        • David Wright

          These are the typical responses from Ron Roy and autismdadd.
          They are idiots.

          • Marcel

            Whatever they are, their purpose here is far removed from engaging in intelligent, Socratic discourse to arrive and enlightening conclusions. The fictional character Dirty Harry may have said it best: “A man has got know his own limitations.”

            • AutismDadd

              Socratic discourse…buh wah ha ha.

          • Marcel

            Whatever they are, their purpose here is far removed from engaging in intelligent, Socratic discourse to arrive and enlightening conclusions. The fictional character Dirty Harry may have said it best: “A man has got know his own limitations.”

        • David Wright

          These are the typical responses from Ron Roy and autismdadd.
          They are idiots.

        • Ron Roy

          Gee what a grouch. lol

        • Ron Roy

          Gee what a grouch. lol

    • AutismDadd

      Hashimotos? And tell us Mr Science what is the KNOWN cause of it?

      • David Wright

        Do you know the cause?

        • AutismDadd

          Heavy metals like mercury and aluminum

          • David Wright

            You got a citation to support that claim?

            • AutismDadd

              Google…its not hard

              • David Wright

                You made the claim, you provide the citation.
                “Google”
                Don’t worry, you will learn how to cite sources in grade 9. Hang in there!

                • Thomas Mohr

                  I also would like to see his sources. Likely the same scientific crap Ron Roy uses to post.

                • Thomas Mohr

                  I also would like to see his sources. Likely the same scientific crap Ron Roy uses to post.

                • AutismDadd

                  Another LAZY science addict that can do his own simple research.

                  • David Wright

                    I’ve done the research, you’re WRONG! That is the only reason I want you to cite your sources. I want to see it for myself.
                    But you provide nothing because you’ve got nothing.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Says the Sponge Bob wannabee who also supplies nothing.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Says the Sponge Bob wannabee who also supplies nothing.

                  • Marcel

                    Do I detect a wiff of anti-science mentality? There’s probably a homeopathic remedy for that. You could ask your local naturopathic to sell you one, but don’t ask for the science in support of how it works.

                  • Marcel

                    Do I detect a wiff of anti-science mentality? There’s probably a homeopathic remedy for that. You could ask your local naturopathic to sell you one, but don’t ask for the science in support of how it works.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Shill manual right?

                  • David Wright

                    It’s been 2 days and you STILL haven’t provided those citations?
                    Could it be you don’t have ANY evidence?

                  • AutismDadd

                    Hey Sponge Blob. What was it you needed again? Be specific

                  • AutismDadd

                    Hey Sponge Blob. What was it you needed again? Be specific

                  • David Wright

                    It’s been 2 days and you STILL haven’t provided those citations?
                    Could it be you don’t have ANY evidence?

                  • Marcel

                    Now you’re showing your true color, to say nothing of your lack of discernment.

                  • Marcel

                    Now you’re showing your true color, to say nothing of your lack of discernment.

                  • AutismDadd

                    And you’re not?

                  • AutismDadd

                    And you’re not?

                  • AutismDadd

                    Shill manual right?

                  • AutismDadd

                    That wiff is your brain fart…hope that helps

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Quote: “can do his own simple research.” Contrary to you.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Oh so funny the Austrian Jim Carey

          • David Wright

            You got a citation to support that claim?

          • https://www.hempista.com/cannabis-spa Hempista

            That is BS. Listen, I have actually seen the antibodies in my bloodstream with my own two eyes. I’ve seen them in the test results from Stanford. I also know that many people in my bloodline also have autoimmune disease. It is hereditary. I was born this way. Stop shaming sick people for things they have no control over!

            • AutismDadd

              Shows you lack intelligence and fall for the “born that way” nonsense.

              • https://www.hempista.com/cannabis-spa Hempista

                You and the other moran here are insufferable. You want to have a pissing match with the MDs here? Fine. But, the minute you start blaming and shaming patients is where the line is drawn–you don’t deserve my answers or attention. And THIS is a fundamental flaw in the “wellness” and “natural” community–the patient shaming. I’ve never had a doctor at Stanford shame me. Come to think of it, I’ve never had any of the MDs here or Britt shame me either and I’m probably a lot less scientific than they are because dammit, I love herbs and flowers and natural stuff. But I would not tell people not to see their MDs and take herbs instead. NEVER. My conscience would not allow it.

                • Marcel

                  A thick filter of Naturobabble doesn’t allow them to see or accept any other or an opposing view. Instead, they accept whatever their crowd believes, which is more like the followers of a cult than anything else. Hardly limited to the arena of naturopathy, the problem has become widespread.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Quite the sermon. Means nothing. Try again

                  • https://www.hempista.com/cannabis-spa Hempista

                    I’m at a loss how to explain to these people that my anaphylaxis is because I was born that way. The IgE sensitization mechanism is not difficult to understand–basic biology in my estimation… I’m willing to accept my illness and go on living my life free of the stuff I am allergic to, hopefully. They won’t hear it from you doctors, and they won’t hear it from a patient with the most rare of allergies and autoimmune. I give up.

                  • Marcel

                    But a veterinarian would immediately understand because they not only see but have confirmed similar cases in animals.

                  • Marcel

                    But a veterinarian would immediately understand because they not only see but have confirmed similar cases in animals.

                  • https://www.hempista.com/cannabis-spa Hempista

                    I’m at a loss how to explain to these people that my anaphylaxis is because I was born that way. The IgE sensitization mechanism is not difficult to understand–basic biology in my estimation… I’m willing to accept my illness and go on living my life free of the stuff I am allergic to, hopefully. They won’t hear it from you doctors, and they won’t hear it from a patient with the most rare of allergies and autoimmune. I give up.

                • Marcel

                  A thick filter of Naturobabble doesn’t allow them to see or accept any other or an opposing view. Instead, they accept whatever their crowd believes, which is more like the followers of a cult than anything else. Hardly limited to the arena of naturopathy, the problem has become widespread.

          • https://www.hempista.com/cannabis-spa Hempista

            That is BS. Listen, I have actually seen the antibodies in my bloodstream with my own two eyes. I’ve seen them in the test results from Stanford. I also know that many people in my bloodline also have autoimmune disease. It is hereditary. I was born this way. Stop shaming sick people for things they have no control over!

      • https://www.hempista.com/cannabis-spa Hempista

        It’s an autoimmune disease which is largely hereditary. Are you here to attack patients too, daddy?

        • AutismDadd

          I’m anti-bullcrap

      • https://www.hempista.com/cannabis-spa Hempista

        It’s an autoimmune disease which is largely hereditary. Are you here to attack patients too, daddy?

  • https://www.hempista.com/cannabis-spa Hempista

    http://www.historyofvaccines.org/content/timelines/all A very cool timeline of vaccination from antiquity until now. This is natural medicine and wellness at its best! 🙂

  • Judith

    The article states The FDA does not guarantee the quality or safety of dietary supplements. Guess what folks the FDA does not guarantee the safety of vaccines or medicines either. There are over 100,000 deaths a year from medically prescribed drugs. What about the tremendous increase in autoimmune disease, allergies we are seeing –
    could vaccines be the problem:

    “Researchers at the University of Virginia Health System’s Division of Asthma, Allergy & Immunology report that an era of food allergies that began with the post-millennial generation might be a response to vaccines containing the adjuvant alum, a known trigger for allergic traits. Alum is usually the name given to potassium aluminum sulfate when used in vaccines, the FDA states. Sometimes, aluminum hydroxide and even other forms of aluminum adjuvants are also referred to as alum in allergy research.
    In their article published in Journal of Allergy and Clinical Immunology, the UVA team described their rationale for measuring the allergy responses of a patient — who had already demonstrated some food allergies to cow’s milk and peanuts — in relation to the administration of vaccines that contained alum.
    “The era of food allergy began with the post-millennial generation, the same faction who received new immunizations during early childhood. Many of these vaccines contain alum, an adjuvant known to induce allergic phenotypes.”

    The research team concluded that alum-containing vaccines increased IgE, and stated that this is something that they had already observed in their earlier research. The milk desensitation therapy somehow increased the milk-related IgG4, which they had also seen reported after peanut immunotherapy.

    Interestingly, another article, this one published in the Journal of Allergy and Clinical Immunology, reported that in order to study food allergies, specific genetically susceptible wild-mice were actually given egg white protein (ovalbumin) allergies by administering the protein at the same time as the adjuvant alum. Another article in the Korean Journal of Internal Medicine claimed that the “most simple and effective method of inducing an asthmatic reaction in a short period of time in mice” is to inject them with the both the egg white protein and the adjuvant alum two times, with the two injections spaced one week apart.

    In the Journal of Immunotoxicology, researchers from the Department of Pharmaceutical Sciences at Northeastern University said that aluminum adjuvants in vaccines carry a risk of inducing these undesired, allergic responses, especially in people who are genetically predisposed to these types of responses from vaccines and to atopic diseases. These researchers wrote that they have found some genetic variants that might make people more susceptible to allergies being induced by aluminum adjuvants in vaccines, and pointed out that determining who may have these gene variants before vaccination could reduce the incidences of these unfortunate responses to vaccines.

    According to the CDC, alum is found in a handful of vaccines at the same time that potential allergens are. In Comvax, a vaccine used to protect against Hib and hepatitis B, both soy and yeast are potential allergens that are injected at the same time as alum during vaccination. In the hepatitis B vaccine Recombivax, yeast protein and soy are also found in the same injection as alum. According to the World Allergy Organization Journal, vaccines approved for human use in the U.S. that contain aluminum adjuvants include some Hib conjugate vaccines, DTaP vaccines, all combination DTaP, Tdap, and Hib vaccines, hepatitis B vaccines, hepatitis A vaccines, HPV vaccines, anthrax vaccines and rabies vaccines.

    The UVA research team involved in compiling the article that linked food allergies with alum found in certain vaccines consisted of highly-respected allergy and immunology specialists, including Dr. Scott P. Commins, who worked as as Associate Professor of Medicine and Pediatrics at UVA and is now an Associate Professor of Medicine at the University of North Carolina Allergy & Immunology Clinic, Dr. Alice E. W. Hoyt of UVA Allergy and Immunology, Alexander J. Schuyler of UVA, asthma and allergy specialist Dr. Peter W. Heymann, who leads UVA’s Heymann laboratory which is part of the Division of Pediatric Respiratory Medicine at the university, and Dr. Thomas A.E. Platts-Mills, who is a Professor of Medicine and Microbiology at UVA who completed his residency at Johns Hopkins University.”

    http://www.inquisitr.com/3047697/vaccines-increase-food-allergen-millennials-reacting-to-adjuvant-exposure/

    • David

      Actually, you start your ramble with a false statement. Hard to trust anything further. Perhaps you should look up the mission statement of the FDA

      • Judith

        Mission statements are just that – statements:

        Former FDA commissioner, Margaret Hamburg, is the subject of a lawsuit filed in the United States District Court for the District of Columbia. And the details are as grisly as the plaintiff’s allegations. Hamburg is being accused of using her position of power to gain approval for a dangerous antibiotic called Levaquin in order to help her husband’s hedge fund benefit financially. The hedge fund was deeply seeded with Johnson & Johnson, makers of Levaquin. According to The Daily Caller, “Both Alkermes and Johnson & Johnson stock value increased significantly during Hamburg’s tenure,…”

        The lawsuit opens with: “This Amended Complaint sets forth allegations that involve a conspiracy by Defendants, each and every one of them, to reap large financial returns by failing to disclose to Plaintiffs and the public at large the full extent of the devastating, life-threatening, and deadly effects of a highly dangerous pharmaceutical drug named Levaquin,…”

        And there is more. 5,000 people are said to have died as a direct result of this drug’s approval.

        https://truthkings.com/lawsuit-alleges-former-fda-commissioner-hid-dangerous-levaquin-side-effects/#

        • David

          Conspiracy theory. Levaquin is not associated with 5000 deaths

          • Judith

            Not doing too well as a pharma apologist David – do you wan to apologise for the following? Where are the deaths from vitamins.

            Genentech and another drugmaker will pay $67 million to settle claims that they misled doctors into prescribing a treatment to lung cancer patients for whom the companies knew it would not work.

            As a result, some patients may have died earlier than they would have if they had taken more effective drugs, a lawsuit brought by a former Genentech employee and joined by federal prosecutors alleges.

            http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-genentech-tarceva-settlement-20160607-snap-story.html

            According to Chinese news agency Xinhua, GlaxoSmithKline is guilty of bribing doctors and hospitals in order to have their products promoted. The verdict, established in a court in Changsha, slaps the UK pharmaceutical firm with a $490 million fine, the largest in China’s history. This puts an end to an investigation that began in July of 2013. Chinese officials estimate that GSK made $150 million in illegal profits.

            In 2004 after causing an estimated 60,000 deaths worldwide primarily from heart attacks and strokes, Merck pharmaceuticals bestselling arthritis drug Vioxx was withdrawn from sale worldwide. Priorto that Vioxx’s manufacturer Merck had ‘mounted a ghost-writing campaign’ to promote Vioxx. 96 articles were published, some of which omitted to mention the deaths of patients who participatedin clinical trials of the drug.26 Not only did it promote dishonest conduct, Merck had ‘drawn up a hitlist of “rogue” researchers who had criticised Vioxx [who] had to be discredited and ‘neutralized’.27

            In 2006 it was revealed that Bayer Corporation had discovered that their injection drug, which was used by hemophiliacs, was contaminated with the HIV virus. Internal documents prove that after they knew the drug was contaminated, and they took it off the U.S. market, they dumped it in Europe, Asia and South America, knowingly exposing thousands, most of them children, to the live HIV virus. Government officials in France went to prison for allowing the drug to be distributed. The documents show that the FDA colluded with Bayer to cover-up the scandal and allowed the deadly drug to be distributed globally. No Bayer executives ever faced arrest or prosecution in the United States.

            Bayer has also been involved in controversies regarding some of its drug products; its statin drug Baycol (cerivastatin) was discontinued in 2001 after 52 people died from renal failure, and Trasylol (Aprotinin), used to control bleeding during major surgery, was withdrawn from the markets worldwide when reports of increased mortality emerged; it was later re-introduced in Europe but not in the US. Bayer’s neonicotinoid pesticides have been the subject of controversy regarding their possible role in colony collapse disorder.

            Recent revelations that Boehringer Ingelheim, the maker of anti-coagulant drug Pradaxa, had withheld some of their internal analysis that suggested that patients should have their blood levels monitored. Pradaxa has been ‘associated with 280 deaths in Australia and 1,400 adverse drug reactions in the past five years, including abdominal bleeding, brain haemorrhages, strokes and heart attacks.’

            In 2009 Eli Lilly paid $1.415 billion in fines and settlements for the ‘off-label’ promotion of Zyprexa. Eli Lily were fined for the off-label promotion for its use with dementia patients.40

            Pfizer was fined $2.3 billion, then the largest health care fraud settlement and the largest criminal fine ever imposed in the United States. Pfizer pled guilty to misbranding the painkiller Bextra with “the intent to defraud or mislead”,The government alleged that Pfizer also promoted three other drugs illegally: the antipsychotic Geodon, an antibiotic Zyvox, and the antiepileptic drug Lyrica.

            2012 GlaxoSmithKline agreed to pay a fine of $3 billion to resolve civil and criminal liabilities regarding its promotion of drugs, as well as its failure to report safety data. GlaxoSmithKline also pled guilty to failing to disclose safety information about the diabetes drug Avandia to the FDA.

            2013 Johnson & Johnson agreed to pay a $2.2 billion fine to resolve criminal and civil allegations relating to the prescription drugs Risperdal, Invega and Natrecor. T

            2009 Eli Lilly was fined $1.42 billion to resolve a government investigation into the off-label promotion of the antipsychotic Zyprexa. The government also alleged that Lilly targeted primary care physicians to promote Zyprexa for unapproved uses and “trained its sales force to disregard the law.”

            2010 AstraZeneca was fined $520 million to resolve allegations that it illegally promoted the antipsychotic drug Seroquel.

            2012 Abbott was fined $1.5 billion in connection to the illegal promotion of the antipsychotic drug Depakote.

            Pfizer is a large vaccine manufacturer owned by the infamous Monsanto which has bought to you Dioxin, Roundup, DDT, GMO’s. 24D Agent Orange, Bovine Growth Hormone, saccharin, PCB’s.

            An analysis of 70 trials of the most common antidepressants – involving more than 18,000 people – found they doubled the risk of suicide and aggressive behaviourin under 18s.After comparing clinical trial information to actual patient reports the scientists found pharmaceutical companies had regularly misclassified deaths and suicidal events in people taking anti-depressants to “favour their products”.

            Experts said the review’s findings were “startling” and said it was “deeply worrying” that clinical trials appear to have been misreported.

            • Thomas Mohr

              Judith, what you are doing is a tu quoque logical fallacy, aside that law cases NEVER substitute scientific data. You ask where are the deaths due to vitamins ? I will show you, they are here: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3438047/ In summary this is a comparison of breast cancer women who refused state of the art treatment in favor of CAM. The result is devastating. The five year survival in the state of the arm treatment is 80 out of 100, the one in the CAM arm is 40 out of 100. That means of the 2/3rds of the patients who chose CAM over state of the art treatment die unnecessarily. You probably ask yourself where the trials are. The problem is that these treatments (herbs, homeopathics, etc.) are legally speaking not drugs, but dietary supplements which are generally recognized as safe. Additionally these women did not die of the treatment, but of the lack of proper treatment which was their choice. This is not even medical malpractice because it was the patients choice to do this treatment. The only legal construct that grips here would be fraud which is very difficult to prove. For this reason the tens of thousands of victims of naturopaths (mainly due to a delay in treatment) do not show up in courtrooms. However, this study alone shows that the number would be harrowing.

              • AutismDadd

                Their choice..end of story. We can all tell about people who received mainstream treatment, suffered and died anyway. So your suggestion that many died w/o out it , is merely that, a suggestion.

                • Thomas Mohr

                  Says the guy who has not even made it to hillbilly DUH University.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Sounds like the Austrian Donald Trump has no proper response…its what I expected.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Tell me which score did you have at the entry exam to hillbilly-DUH university ? A -1000 on a scale between 0 and 100 ?

                  • AutismDadd

                    There’s no such school Arnold .

                  • AutismDadd

                    Look I have Mohr near speechless. My goal is to achieve 100% speechless

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    The dog barks, but the caravan moves on without even taking notice of him.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    The dog barks, but the caravan moves on without even taking notice of him.

                  • AutismDadd

                    And Thomas stays back to pick up the fresh steaming piles of dog doo with a thin plastic bag on his hand.

                  • AutismDadd

                    And Thomas stays back to pick up the fresh steaming piles of dog doo with a thin plastic bag on his hand.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    Don’t conclude from your job to others. BTW congrats,less than 450 left to the Purple Fart.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Keeping stats like a good little scientist

                  • AutismDadd

                    Keeping stats like a good little scientist

                  • AutismDadd

                    You might make 600 nonsense rants by the end of today. Brown Star

                  • AutismDadd

                    You might make 600 nonsense rants by the end of today. Brown Star

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    First it is “My goal is to achieve 100% speechlessness”. If you want to use an adjective like speechless as a substantive you have to add -ness. Second, 19500 something oral farts. Congrats, only roughly 500 more to go and you will receive the Purple Fart.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    First it is “My goal is to achieve 100% speechlessness”. If you want to use an adjective like speechless as a substantive you have to add -ness. Second, 19500 something oral farts. Congrats, only roughly 500 more to go and you will receive the Purple Fart.

                  • AutismDadd

                    I liked it better when you were speechlessness

                  • 655321

                    Hilarious, you sound like Groucho.

                  • AutismDadd

                    A definite compliment. Yesterday I slapped a pro-vac in my pajamas, what he was doing in my pajamas I’ll never know.

                  • 655321

                    Great stuff, grew up on duck soup and horse feathers.

                  • AutismDadd

                    I liked it better when you were speechlessness

                • David

                  What about when a child is involved? Is it the parents choice?

                  • AutismDadd

                    Yes

                  • David

                    Well you would lose that battle. Because if you deny your child the standard of care treatment for something such as cancer. Then we get the courts to intervene and your child is taken away and given the standard of care treatment

                  • AutismDadd

                    Again with the cancer…try to follow the topic…vaccines

                  • David

                    Well you would lose that battle. Because if you deny your child the standard of care treatment for something such as cancer. Then we get the courts to intervene and your child is taken away and given the standard of care treatment

                • David

                  “When parents wish to withhold or discontinue standard proven treatment in a child with cancer that has a likelihood of long-term cure, referral to the local child protection agency is indicated because a parent’s inability to provide adequate care for a child is a criminal offense.”

                  • AutismDadd

                    Yawn who is talking about cancer?

                • David

                  You obviously have a reading comprehension problem. You responded to Thomas post about cam and cancer. You then said it is a parents choice to withhold standard of care chemo to a child. And then responded what does this have to do with cancer

                  • AutismDadd

                    Wow. You are delusional

                  • AutismDadd

                    Wow. You are delusional

                • David

                  And by the way Thomas provided evidence by way of a study and you resort again to anecdotes

                  • AutismDadd

                    Thomas has no credibility with me.

                  • Thomas Mohr

                    This is not a matter of my credibility, but of the credibility of the study. Given the fact you have to be lectured by english as a foreign language speakers about your own mothertongue, who gives a shit about what you trust or not ? As I said, the dog barks, the caravan moves on.

                  • AutismDadd

                    Get your plastic bag

                  • AutismDadd

                    Thomas has no credibility with me.

          • AutismDadd

            Seems Judith has opened a can of whoop-ass and served you a large helping.

        • David

          And today’s other lead conspiracies on truth kings :
          “Helicopters are secretly spraying organic gardens at night”
          “On Indians: we once murdered them with smallpox and now we force contaminate their water”

          Are you really that stupid and that gullible!?!??!?

          • Sonja Henie

            She is.

          • Sonja Henie

            She is.

          • Judith

            So you have no response so all you can do is attack the messenger – typical.

        • David

          I see from your posts that you are calling for studies comparing vaccinated and unvaccinated children. Well here you go…let’s hear your garbage retort.
          http://jama.jamanetwork.com/mobile/article.aspx?articleid=2275444

          • Judith

            Well David hear is my retort to your garbage

            This is not a unvaccinated/vaccinated study. They only compared children who did not receive the MMR vaccine – and called them unvaccinated – when in fact, they received other vaccines. Also they included the *unvaccinated* if they did not receive BOTH doses of MMR (but indeed received the first MMR dosage).

            *still waiting for 100% unvaccinated study (NO VACCINE AT ALL) and their health issues comparison to vaccinated children and their health issues*

            The Lewin Group is also aligned with various medical insurance programs like Blue Cross Blue Shield and the Kaiser Foundation Health Plan, two corporate entities that just so happen to provide health coverage for vaccines. Both of these insurance groups also consider vaccinations to be “preventive care” and both actively push deadly vaccines like the flu shot and HPV on young children.

            Perhaps the biggest red flag with the Lewin Group, though, is its owner: UnitedHealth Group, another major promoter of vaccines. UnitedHealth, as you may recall, is the same entity that lobbied heavily to eliminate a “public option” from Obamacare, which ended up forcibly adding many previously-uninsured customers onto the company’s rolls.

            “UnitedHealth lobbyists used work provided by the Lewin Group as a basis for its argument that providing a public option would kill the private insurance industry,” wrote Brandon Turbeville and Healther Callaghan in a recent piece for Activist Post. “Those few democrats in the U.S. Congress that disagreed were apt to point out the conflict of interest between the Lewin Group’s findings and UnitedHealth’s desires, referring to the Lewin Group’s work as ‘so-called analysis’ and ‘suspect.'”

        • David

          I see from your posts that you are calling for studies comparing vaccinated and unvaccinated children. Well here you go…let’s hear your garbage retort.
          http://jama.jamanetwork.com/mobile/article.aspx?articleid=2275444

        • AutismDadd

          Shows what greed does to people in power

          • David

            I guess you also believe everything you read on “truth kings ” conspiracy website as well. As this is her only source, with no other evidence whatsoever.

            • AutismDadd

              Strawman

            • AutismDadd

              Strawman

            • 655321

              Did you read truthkings mission statement?

        • AutismDadd

          Shows what greed does to people in power

      • Judith

        Mission statements are just that – statements:

        Former FDA commissioner, Margaret Hamburg, is the subject of a lawsuit filed in the United States District Court for the District of Columbia. And the details are as grisly as the plaintiff’s allegations. Hamburg is being accused of using her position of power to gain approval for a dangerous antibiotic called Levaquin in order to help her husband’s hedge fund benefit financially. The hedge fund was deeply seeded with Johnson & Johnson, makers of Levaquin. According to The Daily Caller, “Both Alkermes and Johnson & Johnson stock value increased significantly during Hamburg’s tenure,…”

        The lawsuit opens with: “This Amended Complaint sets forth allegations that involve a conspiracy by Defendants, each and every one of them, to reap large financial returns by failing to disclose to Plaintiffs and the public at large the full extent of the devastating, life-threatening, and deadly effects of a highly dangerous pharmaceutical drug named Levaquin,…”

        And there is more. 5,000 people are said to have died as a direct result of this drug’s approval.

        https://truthkings.com/lawsuit-alleges-former-fda-commissioner-hid-dangerous-levaquin-side-effects/#

      • AutismDadd

        Does the truth hurt David?

        • David

          The truth is that your child has autism due to genetics and bad luck (yes partly from you), yet you cannot handle that, so you are looking for a scapegoat (vaccines).

          • AutismDadd

            Nice lie.

            • Ron Roy

              He’s paid too so it’s understandable inexcusable but money talks.

          • AutismDadd

            Nice lie.

        • David

          The truth is that your child has autism due to genetics and bad luck (yes partly from you), yet you cannot handle that, so you are looking for a scapegoat (vaccines).

      • Ron Roy

        Hidden mission of the FDA: Protect pharmaceutical companies, from all competition, at any cost.

      • AutismDadd

        Cop out!

      • 655321

        Really? Did you just defer to the Mission statement of the FDA? Wow.

    • David

      Actually, you start your ramble with a false statement. Hard to trust anything further. Perhaps you should look up the mission statement of the FDA

    • Thomas Mohr

      Judith, this is an abstract of a case report. It is known that *any* activation of the immune system may trigger an allergy, this is nothing new. There are also studies linking increased allergy incidence with pollution etc. Allergy is NOT monocausal.

      • AutismDadd

        So “any activation of the immune system may trigger an allergy” Thanks for saying vaccines cause allergies.

    • David

      Do you read the articles or do you just cut and paste? if you did you would see this was an abstract at a conference, not published in a peer reviewed journal. More than that it was an N=1?
      This is laughable and is not evidence of anything.

  • Judith

    The article states The FDA does not guarantee the quality or safety of dietary supplements. Guess what folks the FDA does not guarantee the safety of vaccines or medicines either. There are over 100,000 deaths a year from medically prescribed drugs. What about the tremendous increase in autoimmune disease, allergies we are seeing –
    could vaccines be the problem:

    “Researchers at the University of Virginia Health System’s Division of Asthma, Allergy & Immunology report that an era of food allergies that began with the post-millennial generation might be a response to vaccines containing the adjuvant alum, a known trigger for allergic traits. Alum is usually the name given to potassium aluminum sulfate when used in vaccines, the FDA states. Sometimes, aluminum hydroxide and even other forms of aluminum adjuvants are also referred to as alum in allergy research.
    In their article published in Journal of Allergy and Clinical Immunology, the UVA team described their rationale for measuring the allergy responses of a patient — who had already demonstrated some food allergies to cow’s milk and peanuts — in relation to the administration of vaccines that contained alum.
    “The era of food allergy began with the post-millennial generation, the same faction who received new immunizations during early childhood. Many of these vaccines contain alum, an adjuvant known to induce allergic phenotypes.”

    The research team concluded that alum-containing vaccines increased IgE, and stated that this is something that they had already observed in their earlier research. The milk desensitation therapy somehow increased the milk-related IgG4, which they had also seen reported after peanut immunotherapy.

    Interestingly, another article, this one published in the Journal of Allergy and Clinical Immunology, reported that in order to study food allergies, specific genetically susceptible wild-mice were actually given egg white protein (ovalbumin) allergies by administering the protein at the same time as the adjuvant alum. Another article in the Korean Journal of Internal Medicine claimed that the “most simple and effective method of inducing an asthmatic reaction in a short period of time in mice” is to inject them with the both the egg white protein and the adjuvant alum two times, with the two injections spaced one week apart.

    In the Journal of Immunotoxicology, researchers from the Department of Pharmaceutical Sciences at Northeastern University said that aluminum adjuvants in vaccines carry a risk of inducing these undesired, allergic responses, especially in people who are genetically predisposed to these types of responses from vaccines and to atopic diseases. These researchers wrote that they have found some genetic variants that might make people more susceptible to allergies being induced by aluminum adjuvants in vaccines, and pointed out that determining who may have these gene variants before vaccination could reduce the incidences of these unfortunate responses to vaccines.

    According to the CDC, alum is found in a handful of vaccines at the same time that potential allergens are. In Comvax, a vaccine used to protect against Hib and hepatitis B, both soy and yeast are potential allergens that are injected at the same time as alum during vaccination. In the hepatitis B vaccine Recombivax, yeast protein and soy are also found in the same injection as alum. According to the World Allergy Organization Journal, vaccines approved for human use in the U.S. that contain aluminum adjuvants include some Hib conjugate vaccines, DTaP vaccines, all combination DTaP, Tdap, and Hib vaccines, hepatitis B vaccines, hepatitis A vaccines, HPV vaccines, anthrax vaccines and rabies vaccines.

    The UVA research team involved in compiling the article that linked food allergies with alum found in certain vaccines consisted of highly-respected allergy and immunology specialists, including Dr. Scott P. Commins, who worked as as Associate Professor of Medicine and Pediatrics at UVA and is now an Associate Professor of Medicine at the University of North Carolina Allergy & Immunology Clinic, Dr. Alice E. W. Hoyt of UVA Allergy and Immunology, Alexander J. Schuyler of UVA, asthma and allergy specialist Dr. Peter W. Heymann, who leads UVA’s Heymann laboratory which is part of the Division of Pediatric Respiratory Medicine at the university, and Dr. Thomas A.E. Platts-Mills, who is a Professor of Medicine and Microbiology at UVA who completed his residency at Johns Hopkins University.”

    http://www.inquisitr.com/3047697/vaccines-increase-food-allergen-millennials-reacting-to-adjuvant-exposure/

  • transportjohnny

    Britt, while your article may be very representative of your own experience, I must say our INTEGRATIVE pediatrician who treated our kids first naturally with a TON of success as opposed to the “throw them on a ????(drug of choice)” of main stream medicine is much safer and has had better results than many parents of SSRI, Anti-anxiety, ADHD meds kids have seen.

    I would say, the naturopathic way is much tougher. Knowing genetics, knowing triggers for inflammation, dietary changes, supplement taking…..are all harder choices than what mainstream pill pushers are doing. You don’t think main stream medicine is turning a blind eye in patient exploitation as it pertains to pharmaceuticals???